Mid-pair against a min-raise

[kevster]

I'd like to take this hand step by step.

No helpful reads against opp so what's your line against this pre-flop min-raise?

$1 - NL - 9 Seats 15027337-23 Holdem No Limit 50/100
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Hand Start.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 1 : wilky333 has $2,390
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 2 : MadridSteve has $1,920
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 3 : SanzA has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has $2,660
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 7 : DeepDredger has $1,250
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 8 : ---bill--- has $6,320
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 9 : CaRd_ChEaT has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : ---bill--- is the dealer.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : CaRd_ChEaT posted small blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : wilky333 posted big blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Game [23] started with 7 players.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has 8c 8h
[Jan 22 12:22:40] : MadridSteve folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:42] : SanzA called 100 and raised 100
[Jan 22 12:22:51] : kevcastle ??

[Da GOAT]

UTG+2,4 players to act.

I fold in a vacuum. if table is very tightish then call for set value.

[Sprayed]

I think a call is fine, you have a decent stack and can afford to just call. Villain has fairly enough to make this profitable for set value.

[GatorJH]

I would call this if the table had been playing tight enough for me to reasonably expect that it could get around without being re-raised, although I would like it better if we had a slightly better position.

[hitorque]

low limit table - you will have position - probably worth a call. i play 6.5's and i see a lot of people min raise with bullets, but could be ak too, depends on what books they read lol. also depends on what it's taken to steal blinds so far - maybe he thinks it doesn't cost much.

[taipan168]

I would fold this, even to a minraise. The problem is that you don't have implied odds to play for set value against the raiser (my general rule is I will only call 1/15 of the chips I can win, and the raiser only has 9x the amount Hero needs to call). Plus there is the problem if somebody raises behind we have to let it go and have burned 200 chips for nothing.

If we were in the BB (therefore closing the action) I would definitely call whether or not there were cold callers but not here, as Goat said, with 4 players left to act.

[johnny_fish]

Call and be prepared to play for more than set value.

88-TT is tricky to play but position should help.

[kevster]

An interesting mix of calls and folds from posters I respect a lot. Doesn't help me much to know if I was right or not except to suggest that the decision may have been marginal. Anyway, I called. Here's the next section of the hand....

The pre-flop raiser has checked, how are you playing this paired board...

[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Hand Start.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 1 : wilky333 has $2,390
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 2 : MadridSteve has $1,920
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 3 : SanzA has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has $2,660
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 7 : DeepDredger has $1,250
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 8 : ---bill--- has $6,320
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 9 : CaRd_ChEaT has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : ---bill--- is the dealer.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : CaRd_ChEaT posted small blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : wilky333 posted big blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Game [23] started with 7 players.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has 8c 8h
[Jan 22 12:22:40] : MadridSteve folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:42] : SanzA called 100 and raised 100
[Jan 22 12:22:51] : kevcastle called 200
[Jan 22 12:22:52] : DeepDredger folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:52] : ---bill--- folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:55] : CaRd_ChEaT folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : wilky333 folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : Dealing flop.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : Board cards [7d 9s 9c]
[Jan 22 12:23:01] : SanzA checked.
[Jan 22 12:23:05] : kevcastle ??

[taipan168]

I would check behind on the flop and bet the turn if opp checks again.

[Da GOAT]

i fold PF actually i thought he bet 100 not 200 PF therefore set value aint there as tai mentioned.

Postflop i take a passive line.

check flop
call if he bets out turn or bet if checked to.
fold if he bets river or check if checked to.

[TLR]

Preflop: It is one of those marginal situations, 66 and below I definitly fold, TT+ I call/raise, 77-99 are the borderline hands here.

The problem with calling here is that there are multiple people still left to act behind you and you dont want to handle a raise.

I think that in a vacuum I fold this.

Another line that you can take is throw in a small reraise, by about 150 or so. This should shake off all those behind you without a very strong hand, and will help you define your hand better. If you get reraised you get out. If he calls he still might have AA-QQ but it is less likely.
Reraising is a dangerous move but I think I prefer it to calling

As played I bet this flop. This is a pretty decent flop for you. Standard line with overpairs is to bet here. If he has two overcards you may get him to fold here, however if you check the flop he may bet the turn even if he has A high taking your check as a sign of weakness.

[Da GOAT]

however if you check the flop he may bet the turn even if he has A high taking your check as a sign of weakness.

which is why i say call turn bet!!

[TLR]

however if you check the flop he may bet the turn even if he has A high taking your check as a sign of weakness.

which is why i say call turn bet!!

So you let him see both turn and river card to hit his two overs ?

[Da GOAT]

however if you check the flop he may bet the turn even if he has A high taking your check as a sign of weakness.

which is why i say call turn bet!!

So you let him see both turn and river card to hit his two overs ?

id really like a read on opp here.

1) we bet flop if anything happens beside opp folding we are giving up
2)we check flop;
Opp bet with Air a HUGE % of the time regardless of turn card.
Opp checks, we bet and take it down sure enough that he aint got a monster.
3) easily played by then fold or check behind.

i dont mind the flop bet tho, i think we can just get an extra bet from him.

[GatorJH]

Barring a read on opponent I think you have to lead out here. As TLR mentioned if you check behind and an overcard (particluarly 10-A) hits the turn you will still not know where you stand with the hand.

If villian check/raises I am most likely letting this go to his rep'd monster

If villian check/calls I am proceeeding with caution on the turn.

[Sprayed]

I would lead out but have bells going off in my head. I would think that most would c-bet here if they where the initial raiser preflop. I would, however be prepared to let the hand go. Mid pps are very difficult for me to play when the flop comes and they are over pairs to the board.

[hitorque]

i would agree with leading out for some of the same reasons as the others above. he probably doesn't have a 9 in his hand - i just can't see that. but you want him to pay something to see any more cards. if he's playing aq or something, then the next card could be your death. if he check raises you then you have learned that he's not going away so easy, so maybe you should go away and try again later.

[kevster]

Again we have a mixed bag of responses. I bet the flop after his check. Here's the last part of the action.....

[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Hand Start.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 1 : wilky333 has $2,390
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 2 : MadridSteve has $1,920
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 3 : SanzA has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has $2,660
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 7 : DeepDredger has $1,250
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 8 : ---bill--- has $6,320
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 9 : CaRd_ChEaT has $1,730
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : ---bill--- is the dealer.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : CaRd_ChEaT posted small blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : wilky333 posted big blind.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Game [23] started with 7 players.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 22 12:22:36] : Seat 5 : kevcastle has 8c 8h
[Jan 22 12:22:40] : MadridSteve folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:42] : SanzA called 100 and raised 100
[Jan 22 12:22:51] : kevcastle called 200
[Jan 22 12:22:52] : DeepDredger folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:52] : ---bill--- folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:55] : CaRd_ChEaT folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : wilky333 folded.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : Dealing flop.
[Jan 22 12:22:57] : Board cards [7d 9s 9c]
[Jan 22 12:23:01] : SanzA checked.
[Jan 22 12:23:05] : kevcastle bet 300
[Jan 22 12:23:14] : SanzA called 300
[Jan 22 12:23:14] : Dealing turn.
[Jan 22 12:23:14] : Board cards [7d 9s 9c 4d]
[Jan 22 12:23:17] : SanzA checked.
[Jan 22 12:23:18] : kevcastle checked.
[Jan 22 12:23:18] : Dealing river.
[Jan 22 12:23:18] : Board cards [7d 9s 9c 4d Qh]
[Jan 22 12:23:21] : SanzA bet 1,230 and is All-in
[Jan 22 12:23:36] : It's your turn.
[Jan 22 12:23:36] : kevcastle ??

[GatorJH]

I am not getting all of my chips in here. There are quite a few hands that fit perfectly with his betting pattern including 10's, J's, KQ and AQ.

He has shown strength throughout the hand so barring a donkey read I am folding here and waiting for a better spot.

[uscheese]

8's and 9's are hands that really get me confused...lately depending on position I've been limping or calling small raises with low pp's hoping for sets...last night on the bubble (4 or 5 left) of a sng I was dealt 8's...blinds were getting pretty high (it was a speed sng) and I probably only had 4 or 5 BB's left...I raised the bet and button pushed all in...I hit call and it put me all in and as soon as I hit call I felt like an idiot but then saw his pocket 5's and felt like a genius. Then the flop was K55 and I felt like an idiot again

[uscheese]

oh...and on the kevstar 88 hand above...I fold.

I think sanza has you beat here

[Wooderson]

As played, I fold on the river. But what about the turn? Should hero have checked behind there after villain called the flop bet?

[uscheese]

As played, I fold on the river. But what about the turn? Should hero have checked behind there after villain called the flop bet?

Yea I would have probably bet more than I'd bet on the flop just to try to say "REALLY I HAVE YOU BEAT"

[Sprayed]

Here's what happened. Villain min raised with A9 preflop and hit a dream flop. He checks to slowplay, because that's what preflop min raisers do. He calls your bet and checks turn hoping for you to bet again. You don't so he shoves river. Fold

That's just my theory.

[GatorJH]

Here's what happened. Villain min raised with A9 preflop and hit a dream flop. He checks to slowplay, because that's what preflop min raisers do. He calls your bet and checks turn hoping for you to bet again. You don't so he shoves river. Fold

That's just my theory.

Yea, what he said

[johnny_fish]

Seems like minraising+gay slowplaying with a monster to me. Fold river.

[kevster]

Here's what happened. Villain min raised with A9 preflop and hit a dream flop. He checks to slowplay, because that's what preflop min raisers do. He calls your bet and checks turn hoping for you to bet again. You don't so he shoves river. Fold

That's just my theory.

Spot on Sprayed though he showed his cards - T9s.

Easy fold on the river, I was mainly interested in the pre and post flop decisions which seem fairly split. Marginal I guess.

[Sprayed]

I see this style of play a lot. The chronic min raisers loves to min raise scs, pps, and A rag o/s from any position. Then they play the same way post flop by either weak betting or slowplaying. When they raise preflop >3xbb it's a big hand.

I don't mind seeing flops with these guys because you have a pretty good idea of where you are at. They tend to stack themselves by hitting TPWK and calling big bets. Unfortunately, every now and then they hit a dream flop or their Ax hits two pair when you have AK. That's why it's important to not overplay one pair.

Oh, and they love to show their cards when they have a big hand or when they bluff.