4-betting with JJ

[jo]

Villain is tight, and a little on the passive side (26/10/1.6). However, he does seem to have picked up on the fact that I'm raising a lot, because he seems to be 3-betting me at a higher than normal frequency (although he could just be on a rush). Anyway, I decide to take a stand, not really expecting to be hugely ahead of his range, and expecting him to fold.

Instead he calls, and then I hit the flop pretty hard. My initial instinct is simply to push, given the size of the pot by now. But, looking back on it, I 'm not sure that it was the right move. It's the 4-bet call that has me confused. Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop? What do you guys think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($273.10)
Hero ($224.25)
MP ($235)
CO ($296.30)
Button ($114)
SB ($102.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J.
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $18, 3 folds, Hero raises to $60, CO calls $42.

Flop: ($123) 2, J, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $164.25 (All-In)

[Regulator_]

He was acting like he had a monster.. you only have the fifth best pokerhand..

unless he's one of those guys that enjoys seeing the flop, no matter the price, you better fold..

he seemed a bit too eager, like you said. You should have seen where he took it.. instead of making the innitial move.

[Renton]

I like just calling this pre. If u had AQ or something then fourbet, but i think theres too much value in flatting JJ here. I probably bet 80-90 on the flop.

[bdawg56kg]

Just call preflop. 4-betting JJ (especially here) sucks, unless villian is extremely bad or you have specific history with that villain. Flop push is fine, checking is also fine.

Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop?

aa/kk/akc. These hands are never folding on flop.

[jo]

Regulator: I'm not folding this hand anywhere.

Renton: Yeah, after the fact that's what I was thinking about. AA/KK/AQ may all try something against a c-bet, but not against a push.

He folded and I took it down, hence the second-guessing.

I also thought about a c-r all-in, but I figured a free card was too dangerous with the T completing AK, and a flush draw out there.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Don't fourbet JJ

[Numbr2intheWorld]

if you miss that flop you better be checking it too.

[jo]

IowaSkins: OK

Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop

[Genitruc]

villain has AK/QQ lots of the time here. Also it'll be 1010 and maybe AQs if he thinks you're completely out of line. Of course he/she could be trapping w AA/KK... But that's unlikely since you like your hand so much that you look like you want to get it all in. SO AA/KK usually shoves over the top.

Vs those hands there's nothing wrong with a push. The pot is big and with all the possible draws AA/KK have a very tough time folding. If villain has AK you're unlikely to get more money anyways.

nh. FWIW villain will put you on AA/KK almost all the time here, esp since both J and Q flopped.

[bdawg56kg]

Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop

This is why JJ is such a bad hand to 4-bet. It is v tough to get weaker hands to pay you off and it is almost impossible to get better hands to fold. Why not 4-bet garbage instead if your intent is to take it down preflop? When you 4-bet JJ you basically throw all the value that hand has (which is a lot) down the drain.