Blind war vs Jager.

[Renton]

I just sat, we're both familiar with how each other plays.

POKERSTARS GAME #8695634278: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/03/02 - 00:27:02 (ET)
Table 'Valeria' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Jager244 ($379.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Renton555 ($197 in chips)
Seat 3: bait455 ($201.70 in chips)
Seat 4: mayhem920 ($373.50 in chips)
Seat 5: choial ($254 in chips)
Seat 6: Owen_Lift ($270.15 in chips)
Jager244: posts small blind $1
Renton555: posts big blind $2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [8d Jh]

bait455: folds
mayhem920: folds
choial: folds
Owen_Lift: folds
Jager244: raises $6 to $8
Renton555: calls $6

*** FLOP *** [4s 3d Jc]

Jager244: bets $10
Renton555: raises $18 to $28
Jager244: raises $47 to $75
Renton555:

[elipsesjeff]

Well, I'd fold preflop, and probably not raise the flop as you have showdown value and see what he does on turn. After you raise if he RR its a pretty easy fold as there are no draws on this board for him to protect himself.

[Renton]

After you raise if he RR its a pretty easy fold as there are no draws on this board for him to protect himself.

Try and put him on a range, and this becomes a slightly more interesting problem.

[Jager]

I thought I might see this hand again...

[Genitruc]

Sick hand, esp if he knows you'll bluff-raise this flop a lot.

As played, just check-call him down if you feel like continuing.

It's very unlikely he has a monster here, as stack-a-donk would be optimal...

[Jager]

as stack-a-donk would be optimal...

I take offense to this statement...

[Genitruc]

as stack-a-donk would be optimal...

I take offense to this statement...

edit : obv Renton was the donk in the hypothetical stack-a-donk I was talking about...

[Renton]

yea i figure he calls and checks turn with overpairs and sets a huge % of the time.

[elipsesjeff]

I guess he could have mid pocket pair or weak J and may fold to a push. FWIW, whenever I've called jager down in marginal hands he always wins.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Isn't this just exactly how you play sets OOP? Maybe versus you I guess not but normally I'd just put him on a set/overpair and call it a day.

[gabe]

why did you raise the flop

[Renton]

why did you raise the flop

because i figured he'd call me light and then pay me off for a river bet when we check through the turn, OR he'd threebet light and i'd call down. What im wondering, (or what seems to be the concensus), is whether im giving him too much credit for an airy range in those circumstances.

[Miffed22001]

why dont you just call the flop and ask jager to define his hand strength oop?
Our hand is mediocre but string in the circumstances, and if we call the flop, jager has to put us on something.

[Fnord]

Next time before you get into a pissing contest, ask yourself if you really want to start one.

This comes down to where you think the other guy is at. With only $125 behind, it might be better to just shove than call if you think you're good. Getting JTish kinda stuff to fold would be sexy.

[nutsinho]

Don't raise the flop; as played shove.

[Pelion]

I like a shove. From what ive seen of jager hes pretty spewey raising in these spots (no offense ) with weakish hands like TP some sort of kicker but I doubt hell call an allin with something like JT and probably not even AJ. I think hes ahead of you most of the time but will fold almost all the time (i.e. without overpair +)

edit: I also think jager overestimates how much YOU might be bluffing in this spot until you make that push over the top.

[Renton]

why is shove better than call-call?

[Genitruc]

cuz if you call jager prob knows you're not going anywhere (call his flop 3-bet, that is)

[nutsinho]

he's OOP so checking down two streets is a lot to ask of him if he has like QJ here; if you shove flop he probably folds it

[Renton]

cuz if you call jager prob knows you're not going anywhere (call his flop 3-bet, that is)

well ths isn't mathematically true, there will still be a >2/3 pot bet left. Also, if i could flat call and safely fold to a turn push(e.g. he thinks im potstuck and so then gives up bluffing), doesn't that mean that this line would be superior to pushing the flop? (obviously i didn't think i could, but supposing the scenario)

[Renton]

btw, why are u guys dominating his range with Jx type hands. Wouldn't 3betting those hands be a poor play for value on jager's part?

When he threebet i thought he had overpair+ or a bluff.

[Genitruc]

btw, why are u guys dominating his range with Jx type hands. Wouldn't 3betting those hands be a poor play for value on jager's part?

When he threebet i thought he had overpair+ or a bluff.

agreed

point is that unless he's suicidal-insane he won't put another cent in when it's a bluff and you're not folding once you call the 3 bet so just stick it in, hope he puts you on 56s and calls with A high

[aislephive]

This is a good example of why you shouldn't raise the flop here against a good aggro player.

If you want to continue, shoving is pretty bad I think because he'll fold bluffs and snap call everything that has you crushed, I'd call and re-evaluate the turn. As played I really think you need to fold to his 3 bet, also I don't like the call preflop much.

[Fnord]

why is shove better than call-call?

Because he figures to have outs and might even fold a better hand.

[aislephive]

why is shove better than call-call?

Because he figures to have outs and might even fold a better hand.

He figures to have 6 outs at most, and if he is very aggro it's worth it to give him a shot at catching up if we can get him to spew 60bbs on the turn. He is never 3 betting the flop with a better hand with the intention of folding to a shove when 45% of his stack goes in. That's pretty ridiculous.