You weren't supposed to call that!

[Galapogos]

Villian is 45/2 over about 60 hands. He is very loose preflop but not too horrible post-flop. He calls too much hoping to suck out but he doesn't generally get involved in big pots without big hands. So far the cards have been kind to him. The initial 3-better was pretty aggro preflop. I figured I was going to take the pot down right there if I squeezed with another bet. He folded as planned but kessler188's call has me thinking I'm done unless I hit a miracle card.


Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (Real Money), #143,315,936
Table Barquisimeto, 3 Apr 2007 1:30 PM ET

Seat 1: Garbarek ($82.65 in chips)
Seat 5: NejJacob ($105.90 in chips)
Seat 6: Galapogos [ J, J] ($99.15 in chips)
Seat 9: Satsumatz ($298.45 in chips)
Seat 10: kessler188 ($116.05 in chips)

Antes/Blinds
Satsumatz posts blind ($0.50), kessler188 posts blind ($1).

Pre-Flop
Garbarek folds, NejJacob folds, Galapogos bets $4, Satsumatz bets $10, kessler188 calls $9.50, Galapogos bets $30, Satsumatz folds, kessler188 calls $23.50.

Flop [board cards 8,T,8 ]
kessler188 checks, Galapogos...


Hope to check it down or what? Any bet will basicall commit me.

[Fnord]

Why did you re-raise a guy who calls too much and has shown so little pre-flop aggression?

Tempted to check to see a turn card and see if he's inclined to bet, although with pot behind I'm also inclined to just stick it in there.

[griffey24]

I have a feeling we're in big trouble here, but I also think the pot is too big now to give it up. Two cold calls by villain, this could be a monster, or a big Ace.

I think the pot is big enough that I'm fine betting here to take it down. Its not like we can fold to a lead on the turn anyhow. The pot is like $70 now, with only $70 behind.

[Galapogos]

Why did you re-raise a guy who calls too much and has shown so little pre-flop aggression?

I meant the villian doing the calling here preflop was the one that shows no preflop aggression. The guy who actually reraised me was very aggressive and we had been raising each other frequently.

[IowaSkinsFan]

with reads i go with fnord.

[Fnord]

I meant the villian doing the calling here preflop was the one that shows no preflop aggression. The guy who actually reraised me was very aggressive and we had been raising each other frequently.

All-in, checking would be terrible.

[mcatdog]

kessler188's call has me thinking I'm done unless I hit a miracle card.

If he sucks so much, why are you thinking you're done unless you hit a miracle card? He has an overpair sometimes but if he had AK, I imagine he'd play it exactly like this and that alone is enough of a reason to shove.

[Ravageur]

Yeah if you're beat you're beat. I just stick it in here too the way it's been played.

[Genitruc]

sick spot.

Checking can't be terrible here as lots of cards can open up draws for you. If he's got overs he'll only hit the turn 11-20% of the time anyways (depending on which overs).

I'd check and bet a low card, spade or 9 if checked to. Maybe even a K or Q.

[Fnord]

Checking can't be terrible here as lots of cards can open up draws for you. If he's got overs he'll only hit the turn 11-20% of the time anyways (depending on which overs).

Don't give people cheap chances to hit both real and possible outs when the pot is big. Checking here is a disaster unless it will induce him to bluff with any two. In any case, we make $$$ either way when we force 2 overs to pay potish or fold to see 2 more cards.

[Genitruc]

even if he's bad, is he EVER calling w AK/AQ type hand?

I'm not anti-shoving on this flop but I don't think checking is bad since you may get villain to come along with a 99 or 77 hand.

[Fnord]

even if he's bad, is he EVER calling w AK/AQ type hand?

Why would we ever want to show hands like that another card for free? Pot control and tight laydowns went out the window when we re-raised. I can only see checking here if we think we're stealing the free card far more often than not.

[elipsesjeff]

even if he's bad, is he EVER calling w AK/AQ type hand?

Why would we ever want to show hands like that another card for free? Pot control and tight laydowns went out the window when we re-raised. I can only see checking here if we think we're stealing the free card far more often than not.

I do this too much.

[Galapogos]

Preflop was meant to be between myself and the SB only. When the BB stuck around I was so sure I was in trouble. He was loose preflop but he wasn't insanely retarded loose. I really couldn't see him calling all this OOP with AK. When this flop came I had to be smoked, there was nothing he could have called with preflop that didn't beat me.

Of course I did push anyway under the logic I was so far in anyway and he was loose and he could have AK but naturally he called with AA. I really felt I was making the wrong move as I was doing it though. Basically his preflop action told me what he had. I think it would have been better to check down and fold to any bets because if the loose passive wants to suddenly make a play with AK after I showed so much strength preflop, so be it.

[Ash256]

As an after-topic chaser, why is shoving good? Are there any worse hands that will call? Are there any better hands that will fold? I can't really see how shoving does anything except for lose money here. I'm not giving advice or questioning the above posters ability to play poker, it's just that I'm trying to improve my own thought process at the mo. Any replies to this would be much appreciated.

[Rondavu]

Roffle. You decided your hand was best before the flop. What changed after it? I love this flop for our hand with the presented action.

The only move here is to protect a gigantic delicious pot after a desirable flop.

As an after-topic chaser, why is shoving good? Are there any worse hands that will call?

Aaaaah, yes. Built pots get loose calls.



Jeff, stop giving away cards in built pots. That's dumb.

[Galapogos]

Roffle. You decided your hand was best before the flop. What changed after it? I love this flop for our hand with the presented action.

Because this is not the player I expected to be going to the flop with. Vs SB there is no question I would have pushed. I had expected the BB to fold. Like I said BB was loose preflop, but to just be calling here with some sort of AQ+ type hand would be retarded.

[sauce123]

I say ur options on flop are check/fold to any bet or just shove and I cant really imagine not shoving here though you will get shown QQ a lot.

[Rondavu]

Roffle. You decided your hand was best before the flop. What changed after it? I love this flop for our hand with the presented action.

Because this is not the player I expected to be going to the flop with. Vs SB there is no question I would have pushed. I had expected the BB to fold. Like I said BB was loose preflop, but to just be calling here with some sort of AQ+ type hand would be retarded.

You can't fold this hand on this flop with your stack. You have way too much equity against his battling range, which is hedging against a reasonably frequent 3-bettor, which you happen to be. AQ, AK, and even some rare mid pockets are in this range.

Can someone do the pokerstove against a higher pocket filled range?

[mcatdog]

He was loose preflop but he wasn't insanely retarded loose. I really couldn't see him calling all this OOP with AK.

I don't even think most tight players would fold AK to you here and you really expect a guy with 45/2 stats to pitch AK? In my experience trying to push people off of AK preflop doesn't work out too well. To be honest I have my doubts that he'd fold AQ here which makes overcards more than half of his range, so a push is clear unless you think he'll bluff the turn.[/i]