Live 200NL hand

[Silly String]

I visited my area casino boat this weekend during a Bachelor party and wanted to run a hand by everyone. I was playing 200NL with 1/2 blinds.
I have been pretty card dead and it seems much more so since I can't 4 table. Seriously though I am playing tight in a very loose game. 8 players sitting and effective stack sizes are $225.
I am UTG and am dealt
I make it $12 to go. Normal raise is $10-$12. Raises are seeing most flops multiway, but I don't need to get in over my head with KQo. 3 callers, including MP(Tagg-nit but not real good), CO(sLaggy decent older regular, but only sitting 3 orbits or so), and Button(Young decent Lagg). I didn't really want 3 callers, but oh well. Here we go.

Flop ($46 pot after rake):

I check, MP bets $20, CO & Button call. I call.
Turn ($125 pot):
I check, MP bets $25, CO calls, Button folds, I call.
River ($200 pot): The beautiful

What do you do to maximize value here?

I bet out 1/2 pot($100) hoping to get a call from 2 pair or a Q. Is that maximizing my hand's value? Please look at the other options in the poll and describe your choice.

[seoul_child1]

PUSH.. because of the way you played it, your hand is very well hidden!

$200+ pot / your left with about $160 = easy Push; here's why- your first to act and these sLAGGtards have been donking around, do not let a Q go un-punished! *against these opponents Q has to call*

[Miffed22001]

push OR a sexier line if you know they'll bet is a c/r all in.

[Silly String]

I thought about a CR all-in, but thought < 2pr would check behind on a 4-straight board .
I had one guy barely betting into us(my guess: TP~K), and the CO was just calling with what? A draw, 2nd pair? The only way I get this all in is with a wacky 2 pair calling or a Q high str8? I thought the open push might blow out some lesser calling hands.
That was my reasoning, do you still have the same opinions?

[Galapogos]

I just push and pray to see a Q. I don't think MP is betting again and CO probably had a flush draw.

[Silly String]

Does anyone think the only calling hand is a Q if we bet out at least $100?

[Miffed22001]

id push because only a queen calls, which is exactly what we want anyway.
My thinking is for the amount fo time Qx even the dope end of the straight calls makes up for the amount of times we bet for value and get called (not a lot unless we bet a small amout IMO)

[Chopper]

i dont understand the push. and i dont understand how our hand is "well hidden." all we did here was check-call pussy bets oop. that should SCREAM draw. when any draw completes, and we push...only idiots call.

my opinion is to lead out 1/2 pot and let aggros push over. or let everyone call. i'm not folding here (DUH), but in such a loose passive game (who leads the turn with $25? WTF?), you play to the passive side with the nuts. a push would, imo, fold around. Q here calls, but would have bet out more with TP. even at a 10 NL table online, a Q bets more. you need to bet small to entice 2nd/3rd pairs to call. dont blow those weenies out of the river.

[Fnord]

only idiots call.

It's a live game. Really depends on post-flop texture but I push this all day because Qx is never folding but will often just call a bet. Two pair and sets will sometimes refuse to fold.

I like check/raising if we think there will be a bet, but that's very read dependent and pretty much tables our Qx or better (not that it will stop some guys from calling.)

Leading out into passive opponents is my least favorite option.

[Chopper]

only idiots call.

It's a live game. Really depends on post-flop texture but I push this all day because Qx is never folding but will often just call a bet. Two pair and sets will sometimes refuse to fold.

I like check/raising if we think there will be a bet, but that's very read dependent and pretty much tables our Qx or better (not that it will stop some guys from calling.)

Leading out into passive opponents is my least favorite option.

isnt a push still "leading out?" you cant tell me that checking is the option here into passive opponents, even if you have been checking and they have been betting in previous rounds. you hit the nuts. you cannot risk the check-behind, and you need SOME payoff here. even if its small, you lead out. the table is too passive (look at those bet sizes). pushing blows them out of the hand. leading small allows them to either call (you get paid off) or push over (bluff you out...which wont happen here).

i know youve read the books/articles. you always lead into passives, and only stop when they play back at you. this doesnt change because you hit the nuts or because you have played a draw the whole way..and it completed.

unless, and i know you are good for this, you can show me the math to prove that pushing is a better option.

[seoul_child1]

i dont understand the push. and i dont understand how our hand is "well hidden." all we did here was check-call pussy bets oop. that should SCREAM draw. when any draw completes, and we push...only idiots call.

*Exactly, the way he played this hand screams draw and then hitting, but what? surely NOT hitting THE NUT DRAW . And with the push it can mean so much for these type of nitty passive LIVE players!! No 2 pair bets or calls anything else here, so we are trying to trap the Qx or sets (who can't lay down) into thinking we are making a move or we are so happy we completed having just the Qx ourselves!!

[Silly String]

It seems everyone but Chopper assumes there is a Q out there. From the way the hand was played, how do we know?
Can you put one of these guys on a draw with a Q?
My best chance to get paid seems like hoping Mr. Weak Leader, who probably has TP hit his kicker for 2 pair somewhere along the way, probably river. I put CO on a flush draw like Galapogos.
I guess most of you are saying open push hoping somebody has a Q kicker or Q in there drawing hand?

[Chopper]

if you say these guys are "nitty," how can they call a push? they wont. they will, however, call a half pot bet. thats how you maximize your value. not by always trying to hit a home run.

if the nits have a Q, will they call off a possibility of KQ that would play the hand EXACTLY as we played it here? or would they risk $100 on a split pot..with casino rakes? doubt it...if they are nits.

the question was how to get maximum VALUE not how do i get a stack.

[Chopper]

if you say these guys are "nitty," how can they call a push? they wont. they will, however, call a half pot bet. thats how you maximize your value. not by always trying to hit a home run.

if the nits have a Q, will they call off a possibility of KQ that would play the hand EXACTLY as we played it here? or would they risk $100 on a split pot..with casino rakes? doubt it...if they are nits.

the question was how to get maximum VALUE not how do i get a stack. we all know that the nuts rarely pay off with stacks.

[seoul_child1]

if you say these guys are "nitty," how can they call a push? they wont. they will, however, call a half pot bet. thats how you maximize your value. not by always trying to hit a home run.

if the nits have a Q, will they call off a possibility of KQ that would play the hand EXACTLY as we played it here? or would they risk $100 on a split pot..with casino rakes? doubt it...if they are nits.

the question was how to get maximum VALUE not how do i get a stack.

You keep saying maximum value, 1/2 pot bet. IF any villain calls that bet WHY wouldn't they call his remaining $60 that he has left?? that is the point he doesn't have enough to really be value betting, so YES homerun all the way here since he is first to act OOP, regardless of what we put opponents on! Now it would be different if he had say $250+ behind then yes my betting would surely change and a 1/2 pot bet would look oh so good!

[Silly String]

IF any villain calls that bet WHY wouldn't they call his remaining $60 that he has left?? that is the point he doesn't have enough to really be value betting, so YES homerun all the way here since he is first to act OOP, regardless of what we put opponents on! Now it would be different if he had say $250+ behind then yes my betting would surely change and a 1/2 pot bet would look oh so good!

Thank you, that is a point I can understand. I'm still not sure if I played it right.

[Chopper]

i see the point. but i still think the odds of folding the table are too great to push...even for the remaining $60 over the $100. too many times i see pushes get too much respect from shortish stacks like this, while a half pot, or better yet, half villain's stack bet gets called, but not pushed over.

i do agree that someone could misread this as," hes trying to steal the $200 pot with his measly $160 stack...i'm getting over 2:1 here...i call." but i want both to call. that would be an extra $200, not $160...therefore, maximum value. if we were HU, which we are not, i may push. but the power is in the leverage of multiplication, meaning others in the pot, too.

i guess we will agree to disagree on the amount to bet here.

[Fnord]

isnt a push still "leading out?"

Poorly worded. I like just shoving here because I think you're vastly under-estimating the range that's calling here.

The only exception to this might be if one of them just sat down and doesn't figure to be re-buying. Then I'd just go to value-town if a shove would break him. People like that "want to play" at a basic level and a shove isn't threatening money so much as their ability to continue to play.

[Miffed22001]

a value bet looks a hell of alot more like a Queen than a push does...

[Fnord]

a value bet looks a hell of alot more like a Queen than a push does...

While I agree, I think don't think this has much to do with if they're calling or not.

[Miffed22001]

a value bet looks a hell of alot more like a Queen than a push does...

While I agree, I think don't think this has much to do with if they're calling or not.

agreed

[zenbitz]

Interesting hand... I voted c/r before reading replies, but I thought laggy button was in not nitty MP.

We really want to extract value from a Q. If we get a little something from non-straights that's great. But also, pot is 3 way, so by checking we might trap 3rd best hand in the middle for at least a bet.

I don't like leading becase as chopper says, our check/calls look like we are drawing, and leading looks like we hit. Also, OP says we have been tight so maybe they notice that all of a sudden we have all our chips on the river on a 4 straight board.

I think leading 1/2 pot is the worst option, because it will probably just get a single caller - no matter what the hand. There isn't enough money behind to worry about bet small/3b a/i, but if we were deeper that would make sense.

It really comes down to shoving or checking and hoping someone bets (preferably MP, so that CO can raise/call).

I think shoving is least likely to get 2 calls, and quite likely to get 2p/sets to fold. They aren't likely to bet anyway though, so I think the balance comes down to the fact that we are 3-way, and if both like their hands a little bet, we might get both a/i or at least 1 bet out of each.

As stated, you have to be pretty sure that one of them is going to bet.

[Fnord]

Fish tend to get passive on the river and doubly so in big bet formats where the money gets bigger.

[Silly String]

Thanks for all the responses:
As I am cutting out $100 in chips, CO says something to the effect of: "Careful. . . careful, don't get yourself in trouble."
I bet out $100 (1/2 the pot) and MP folded. CO thinks for a minute and says "what did you hit there, KQ? Then he made the crying call with AQo.
I am guessing MP had the J, but I was hoping he'd hit 2 pair with the river 9, and I could get a caller other than a Q. I think maybe pushing is best, but a Q could possibly get away from a push the way I played the hand. Probably not though.

[seoul_child1]

Thanks for all the responses:
As I am cutting out $100 in chips, CO says something to the effect of: "Careful. . . careful, don't get yourself in trouble."
I bet out $100 (1/2 the pot) and MP folded. CO thinks for a minute and says "what did you hit there, KQ? Then he made the crying call with AQo. I think maybe pushing is best, but a Q could possibly get away from a push the way I played the hand. Probably not though.

With the information he provided you with in his little "speech".. he can never fold with remaining stack sizes! NH sir

[Chopper]

after that last response, i assume we will see the "push" vote go thru the roof.

[Charles]

All I play is live 1/2NL and I think that the 1/2 pot bet would be best. Even if the middle guy has a pair he might of even hit the bottom straight. I see bottom straits and a Q calling this all the time.However I did push the other day when I had a 6 and the donk had a wheel. I new he was married to his hand so i pushed and he insta-called and then looked like he wanted to cry

[Fnord]

As I am cutting out $100 in chips, CO says something to the effect of: "Careful. . . careful, don't get yourself in trouble."

TELL! Immediatly adjust your bet to all-in!

[mcatdog]

The only exception to this might be if one of them just sat down and doesn't figure to be re-buying. Then I'd just go to value-town if a shove would break him. People like that "want to play" at a basic level and a shove isn't threatening money so much as their ability to continue to play.

Wow, this is really insightful Fnord. I think I'd be hundreds or maybe even thousands of dollars richer if I'd read this post a year ago.

Silly String, whenever people talk during a hand, they're 10X more likely to have a big hand. As soon as that guy piped up, I'd immediately put him on a queen and all my chips would get shoved into the center of the pot.

[Silly String]

Damn, I wish I thought faster during live games, but I only get to play live a couple times a year.
Thanks for the advice on the tell, I wondered how that would be interpreted by the forum.