Id like an opinion

[Miffed22001]

HH converter not working so sorry its in Ongame's crap format.

Opp is a regular 12/2 super nit. This guys just dont exist outside the US sites.
Whats the best way to play this?
Normally i standard reraise this but then im throwing my hand face up and opp wont make the mistake of felting KK/QQ against me.
Random other is a fish.

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 NL (real money), hand #157,520,724
Table Salem, 6 Apr 2007 8:17 PM ET

Seat 3: --Susan-- ($114.15 in chips)
Seat 4: Setdrow ($99.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Feron ($35.10 in chips)
Seat 6: loloBUSTO [ AD,AC ] ($100.00 in chips)
Seat 10: S_Hein ($32.85 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Setdrow posts blind ($0.50), Feron posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
loloBUSTO bets $4, S_Hein folds, --Susan-- calls $4, Setdrow bets $12, Feron folds, loloBUSTO ???

[Muzzard]

What's your image to this guy? You ever 4-betting/pushing without KK/AA?

If you just decide to call...
If he is a supernit he would fold an overpair to heat on the the flop/turn/river? This line will look like a set, board dependent, if you intend to give him heat.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I think you definitely need to 4-bet here, so i like a push since it looks the most bluffy.

[Muzzard]

I think you definitely need to 4-bet here, so i like a push since it looks the most bluffy.

Agreed, i don't think he's paying you off if you just call most the time. If you 4-bet he'd only pay off KK on a non A board right? Is he so nitty he's folding QQ to a four bet?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Raise your normal fourbet.

[JL]

Raise your normal fourbet.

Normal fourbet sounds like an oxymoron.
Maybe I just don't fourbet often enough, but a fourbet from me is very rare and usually a push.

[Miffed22001]

I fourbet enough for it to not always be AA/KK although one thing ive had to work at is not spewing preflop into the wrong oponents and not spewing in reraised pots.

If i 4bet and flop is rags and i push, i may get called plus i may just call and c/r all in or push etc (but as someone mentioned, hes capable of being nitty enough to fold KK to that action considering he probably has a decent opinion of me if i am capable of playing some not so 'premium cards')

Anyway.
This is what i did. Comments, i think i played it ok.
Texas Hold'em $1-$2 NL (real money), hand #157,520,724
Table Salem, 6 Apr 2007 8:17 PM ET

Seat 3: --Susan-- ($114.15 in chips)
Seat 4: Setdrow ($99.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Feron ($35.10 in chips)
Seat 6: loloBUSTO [ AD,AC ] ($100.00 in chips)
Seat 10: S_Hein ($32.85 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Setdrow posts blind ($0.50), Feron posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
loloBUSTO bets $4, S_Hein folds, --Susan-- calls $4, Setdrow bets $12, Feron folds, loloBUSTO calls $8.50, --Susan-- calls $8.50.

FLOP [board cards JS,JD,4S ]
Setdrow bets $25, loloBUSTO bets $87.50 and is all-in...

ok yes...?

[euphoricism]

you dont even have a 4x'r behind at that point so a shove is almost a requirement. Its a shitty board for getting paid off on but he's probably not folding KK at this point. The person behind you is worrysome.

[Miffed22001]

i didnt even notice (playing only two tables) that the fish had come in behind my cold call.
JJx had to be the worst flop considering the syte i knew she was playing. So when she called my push the nit got away. Meh, QJo > AA obviously.

[IowaSkinsFan]

why wouldn't you just call? Very more likely he's stacking off to a call here.

[Jager]

This type of hand has become a VERY read dependent hand for me. How many 4bets do you use in your game? I have been using 3.
1: The 4bet push
2: 4bet to 35ish
3: A light 4bet to around 25ish/min 4bet.

I don't use the light one very often, however this is a spot where I will use this. You cannot call this 3bet because the fish will kill you every time they always call. If the nit has a hand he also will not let the fish stay around, by 4betting to 20-25 the fish has to make a choice to stay or fold. EITHER choice is fine for us. A fold and she is out of our way, a call and the nit has a choice. If he has QQ/KK/AK, he cannot allow this hand to go to the flop 3 ways. Either he pushes or folds, both beneficial to us and if he pushes and the fish comes along w/QJ you will be happy with your hand at the end of the day. If he pushes and she folds more dead money for you. If he folds you are heads up in a reraised pot with the fish holding AA...

[Renton]

rr 3x, fold to a shove, since he only shoves rolled up AAA.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

3: A light 4bet to around 25ish/min 4bet.

I think that the fish who is next to act isn't calling a push, isn't calling a medium sized 4-bet, and isn't calling a light fourbet. That's why i like a push.

[Miffed22001]

This type of hand has become a VERY read dependent hand for me. How many 4bets do you use in your game? I have been using 3.
1: The 4bet push
2: 4bet to 35ish
3: A light 4bet to around 25ish/min 4bet.

I don't use the light one very often, however this is a spot where I will use this. You cannot call this 3bet because the fish will kill you every time they always call. If the nit has a hand he also will not let the fish stay around, by 4betting to 20-25 the fish has to make a choice to stay or fold. EITHER choice is fine for us. A fold and she is out of our way, a call and the nit has a choice. If he has QQ/KK/AK, he cannot allow this hand to go to the flop 3 ways. Either he pushes or folds, both beneficial to us and if he pushes and the fish comes along w/QJ you will be happy with your hand at the end of the day. If he pushes and she folds more dead money for you. If he folds you are heads up in a reraised pot with the fish holding AA...

if i play in a tough game i come over the top often enough that im asking people to overcommit with AK a lot, even 99/88 as they are kinda likely to do also.
In this pokerroom game im not coming over without the goods almost 99% of the time as the nit isnt my main concern anyway.

[Genitruc]

I like every option here (pretty confident you'll be able to get away from the hand when you're beat).

Open-shoving is particularly sexy I think.

[bode]

i think calling is the worst option because the originally caller is coming in behind you >90% of the time. I think a normal 4 bet gets the most out of this hand. A super nit is folding too many hands to a push.

[mcatdog]

i think calling is the worst option because the originally caller is coming in behind you >90% of the time.

I think that's precisely why calling is the best option. Why wouldn't you want the fish in the pot when you have AA? Regardless of what actually happened, a much more common result is going to be this fish hitting top pair with QJ and stacking off.

[biondino]

If you call, then call his flop bet, then raise his turn bet, is he really folding?

[sauce123]

i like how u played and i also dont mind 4betting...

[Miffed22001]

i like how u played and i also dont mind 4betting...

this hand is very uncinventional for me, i odnt react well to being squeezed reraise and tend to start pushing chips in the middle a lot here.

Fwiw, in hindsight a minreraise may have been the best option because teh fish might have made a really horrible error and the nit has a choice to make, although a minraise loosk strong it means i have enough to fold if i have queens here (which i may do if i think im being squeezed light, against the right player)
Meh, 4bet all in ftw.

[Jager]

Well 20 is a minraise, but I like 24ish here.

Can I get some answers to this question:
How do we as poker players make money?

[Ash256]

Can I get some answers to this question:
How do we as poker players make money?

We make +EV decisions.

[Pelion]

I think that's precisely why calling is the best option. Why wouldn't you want the fish in the pot when you have AA? Regardless of what actually happened, a much more common result is going to be this fish hitting top pair with QJ and stacking off.

QFT. Id be suprised if you didnt get the full 100bbs from fish in a reraised pot when they hit top pair.

[Miffed22001]

I think that's precisely why calling is the best option. Why wouldn't you want the fish in the pot when you have AA? Regardless of what actually happened, a much more common result is going to be this fish hitting top pair with QJ and stacking off.

QFT. Id be suprised if you didnt get the full 100bbs from fish in a reraised pot when they hit top pair.

this is actually how i stacked the fish first time round...200bbs deep.

[Jager]

My problem with calling here is now the other 2 players have easy decisions, because we currently have the nuts why are we letting them catch up without making a larger -ev decision. We as poker players make money when our opponents make mistakes. If we make their choices easy or don't allow them to choose, how can they make mistakes?

[sauce123]

By far your worst option here is a 4-bet push. In fact I never 4-bet push, which I think is optimal, as there is rly no reason y u need to make ur fourth bet all in, you rly lose so much value doing this.

As played a call is alright i guess but I think a raise to 29 or somethin is better as you compound the mistakes of both the fish and the nit, also denying them odds to draw out on you (which is kinda irrelevant as you are going to outplay them postflop, but still, its nice to deny express odds)

as played, if fish is terrible enough to overcall the flop bet with like A4 or 77 then I just call on the flop. If this isnt the case then a shove seems fine.

[mcatdog]

If we make their choices easy or don't allow them to choose, how can they make mistakes?

because they can't make a mistake on the flop if we shut them out of the pot pre-flop

[shanbo]

If you want an opinion on something, just get marries, I guarantee you, you will get all the opinions you want!!