2 Big Draws

[Legendash]

I still don't really have my drawing game worked out, i'm torn between betting draws for deception, pushing them for folding equity and calling for pot odds. The first one here i screwed up pretty badly, i saw my heart on the turn and instapushed but when i stoved it later my chances of winning had increased by only 1% due to the set against me. How do you play this first one?

Game #3705362963: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2007/04/04 - 14:48:57 (UK)
Table "Tupac" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Oldthief ($77.30 in chips)
Seat 2: jagAEGER ($107.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Yamoto ($104 in chips)
Seat 4: JoakimR ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: qeper1 ($28.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Legendash ($113.40 in chips)
qeper1: posts small blind $0.50
Legendash: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Legendash [:Jh: ]
Oldthief: calls $1
jagAEGER: calls $1
Yamoto: calls $1
qeper1: calls $0.50
Legendash: checks
----- FLOP ----- [:Th: ]
qeper1: bets $5
Legendash: calls $5
Oldthief: folds
jagAEGER: raises to $18
Yamoto: folds
qeper1: raises to $27.45 and is all-in
Legendash: calls $22.45
jagAEGER: calls $9.45
----- TURN ----- [:Th: ][]
Legendash: bets $84.95 and is all-in
jagAEGER: is all-in $79.05
Returned uncalled bets $5.90 to Vicarious
----- RIVER ----- [:Th: ][:Jd:]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Legendash: shows [Jh 8h] (A Pair of Jacks, Ten high)
jagAEGER: shows [2c 2h] (Three of a kind, Twos, Jack high)
qeper1: shows [Ts Ac] (A Pair of Tens, Ace high)
jagAEGER collected $158.10 from Side pot #1
jagAEGER collected $84.35 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $245.45 Main pot $84.35 Side pot #1 $158.10 | Rake $3
Board [Th 9c 2d 6h Jd]
Seat 1: Oldthief folded on the Flop
Seat 2: jagAEGER showed [2c 2h] and won ($242.45) with Three of a kind, Twos, Jack high
Seat 3: Yamoto (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: qeper1 (small blind) showed [Ts Ac] and lost with A Pair of Tens, Ace high
Seat 6: Legendash (big blind) showed [Jh 8h] and lost with A Pair of Jacks, Ten high
****HAND ENDS****

This second one, I think the call on the flop was borderline correct with the pot odds I was getting, however do you play it differently? Push first on the flop?


Game #3717725903: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2007/04/05 - 17:16:33 (UK)
Table "Hints" Seat 6 is the button.
Seat 1: loosegoos ($97.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Legendash ($92.75 in chips)
Seat 3: andyth ($191 in chips)
Seat 4: Mrorangeo ($97 in chips)
Seat 5: thesparw ($147.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Petonbet ($67.50 in chips)
loosegoos: posts small blind $0.50
Legendash: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Legendash [ :Ad:]
andyth: folds
Mrorangeo: calls $1
thesparw: raises to $4
Petonbet: folds
loosegoos: calls $3.50
Legendash: calls $3
Mrorangeo: calls $3
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
loosegoos: bets $10
Legendash: calls $10
Mrorangeo: raises to $93 and is all-in
thesparw: folds
loosegoos: raises to $93.50 and is all-in
Legendash: is all-in $78.75
Returned uncalled bets $0.50 to loosegoos

[Galapogos]

In Hand #1 unless the villian has a tendancy to reraise often I c/c turn. Especially with someone all-in, a reason for betting/pushing here is also the fold equity, which you have none of vs the guy who's already all-in.

If villian re-raises often and the pot is HU, I think I like a crai on turn more.

Hand #2 is totally fine, though I toss it preflop, I don't like drawing flushes preflop. Yo're not getting paid enough to make it worthwhile.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Hand 1: in general, dont bet a non made hand into a dry side.
Hand 2: STD.

[Galapogos]

Hand 1: in general, dont bet a non made hand into a dry side.
Hand 2: STD.

I wish I was this concise.

[sauce123]

hand 1- fold flop

hand 2- I would just raise the flop myself and call the eventual shove

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Hand 2: STD.

Sexually Transmitted Disorder?

[The_Bankroll]

hand 1: fold the flop.
hand 2: push flop, i'm not crazy about the call pre-flop though.

[c-luvin]

both hands are do i feel like gambling hands cuz folding isnt bad with so little invested, esp hand 1

definately check turn hand 1

[Legendash]

thanks guys

i ended up hitting the flush on the river on hand 2 for a nice pot and 3 or 4 people were like Aaaaaaagh wtfomg what a terrible call on the flop which i thought was unjustified. Well hopefully they've noted me down as a fish or something.

[mcatdog]

I don't think I've ever folded the nut flush draw on the flop unless the board was paired, anyone who thinks your call was bad is a fish playing with scared money.

[acesfullokings]

I don't think I've ever folded the nut flush draw on the flop unless the board was paired, anyone who thinks your call was bad is a fish playing with scared money.

Are you serious, isn't he only get 2:1 on his money here to chase an unmade hand as 4:1 dog???? Am I wrong?

[mcatdog]

He's not a 4-1 dog...

Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 7s 9d 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad 4d 262 29.01 641 70.99 0 0.00 0.290
7d 7h 41 4.54 862 95.46 0 0.00 0.045
9s 9h 600 66.45 303 33.55 0 0.00 0.664

He's already invested some money so he only needs to win 28% of the time to call. Occasionally he's just up against overpairs and he'll win by hitting an ace so it's a clear call although it's high variance.

[acesfullokings]

Ok it wasn't as bad as I thought, but I still don't think I'd want to be involved in it, still seems a bit call n pray for my taste.