open ended SF draw

[Mike]

I played my second highest turnement buyin wise. It was a $50 + $5 tournament. As usual, I try to limp in with decent cards at least on late positions. I am in cut-off seat (before button) on a 9 player table. On person has limped before me. Blinds are $15/$30 and I have about 1500 as I started with. On player has limped ahead of me. He has exactly 1500 chips.

My hand is 8d6d.
The board: 7d9dKs

Villain checks. I raise to 120. 1) Was that good? Villain goes all in. Obviously he has hit his set. 2) Would you call this? I did and he had 77. Calculating it shows that I have 42.1 % so I probably should not have called this if I was a true EV player.

3) To think ahead here, if I wanted to be prepared for an all in here on the flop, would it be better to put in just alittle more pre-flop to make the call ok or would that flop raise be EV-negative?

4) In case he would have had Axs in diamonds, what implications would that have had on how I should behave?


PS: I lost this hand. He hit a 7 on the turn and I did not make anything (more then the 7 pair on the board).

[coolsmoe]

Take my advice for what it's worth, a newbie MTT player.

I fold 8d6d, and I try to live by the saying 'never go bust on a draw'. So I would never have called the AI.

Dunno if it helps you.

[vaks]

if your afraid hes going to push... then you need to push before he can... then he will need a premium hand to call... (trips is premium enough though), but chances are your getting called with AK, KQ, KT also
against AK(no diamonds) your 56% favorite...
AKd is 68% over you...
AQd is 57% over you...
but you wouldnt be able to put villian on any of these hands since he might have raised preflop...

and a push would be a good play here... although there really isnt thta much money in the pot, so your really not going to be winning much with a push.
atleast I think it would be, you might want to wait for a more seasoned veteran to post here(im still a noob, desperately trying to improve his mtt play)

but if you can get all of your monies in the pot when your even a 51% favorite then i believe your doing the right thing, because you cant win an MTT if you dont build up any chips ever...

[Mike]

Would you fold it PF, avoid the raise or fold it on his all in?

[seoul_child1]

REBUY- Nike just do it!

FREEZEOUT- there's no Wrong Decision here, i can't fault a call nor a fold.

[SteveO]

In a rebuy you call that every day and twice on Sunday.

In a freezeout, dump it pre-flop usually. I agree with taking some cheap flops early with your suited connectors so I don't hate it that you saw a flop. Unfortunately you hit just enough to get you in trouble.

Without any reads, I think you can dump it to his all-in because of the stack size. You still had plenty of chips and you knew you were behind when he pushed. You had a monster draw are could be a favorite over a lot of hands with a str8 flush draw but it was still a draw. I prefer to get the money in while ahead and not call off the stack.

You could have moved in first but given the results he would have called anyway and as mentioned above an AI is a huge overbet here.

Overall, I would say going bust on that draw is not a horrible play. You gotta double up to get anywhere in an MTT and you were likley even money to do so with that draw.

[Sprayed]

I wouldn't fold. You are a favorite with this hand. You can't put someone on a set on this flop. With a monster draw I would take this action even this early in the tourney.

[WildBobAA]

lol@ this thread

[chardrian]

lol@ this thread

I really wish people would explain when they make posts like this - if you're gonna take the 5 seconds to post this, take 1 more minute and explain why it so ridiculous.

As for the OP's questions/hand. Limping with a hand like this early is fine depending on position and how the table is playing.

Postflop - you flopped an oesd + flush draw. When he pushes you say "obviously he has hit his set" - this is just wrong. He very likely has hit a set but he could just as easily have AK, K9, or 79 or even a hand like TdJd. In any event you have around 15 outs - I call here everytime this early.

[WildBobAA]

Why give advice when you can be a troll and make fun of everyone for no reason?

[seoul_child1]

Why give advice when you can be a troll and make fun of everyone for no reason?

????

[Mike]

Well, thanks for all the answers. Somewhat mixed message, but that was what I kind of expected. It was a close situation.

It certainly would have made a nice hand if he hit his 7 on the turn, but at the same time I would have hit the Td on the river though ...

PS: Don't get the troll thing, but that's ok.

[dev]

It's close either way, his pushing range is probably a set or two pair, or a better flush draw. So you're behind his range, but not by much. EV-wise, this decision is so close you're not really losing either way. Go with your read. If you're pretty sure he's got a set, you can't really call here.

Then again, we haven't really done the math. 15/30, two limpers and I assume both blinds? So there's 120 in the pot, you bet 120, he pushes. There's 1350 to call into a 1710 pot. That's pot odds of about 1.3:1, your odds against a set here are closer to 1.4:1. Again, it's so close, you just go with your gut. It's too close to say you're right or wrong on a call or a fold. Personally, I think I can muck because we're not a significant favorite over -anything-, but we can be a significant dog against a higher flush draw with a pair.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Why give advice when you can be a troll and make fun of everyone for no reason?

Your lucky he rarely, if ever, gets pms.

[Jack Sawyer]

open ended SF draw?

Only when shorthanded, and already high up in the money.
The sidelines are full of people who took chances and lost.
You have 15 MFING outs, and chances are none of them will hit on either the turn or the river. It happened to me, in an important tourney.

Even if you hit, chances are you'll lose to the nut flush draw (as in Ace high). Hold on: what is that flush draw's correct name (since the sf draw should be the absolute nuts, therefore it would be the real nut flush draw)?

[Jack Sawyer]

What I mean with that, is that a SF draw is like a fn mirage. It looks almighty, but a hidden set wight beat you (if the board pairs on the turn or river, and it would be particularly ironic if that card would give you a flush), an Ace high flush might beat you etc.
Two cards in that deck will let you complete the almighty, cannot be cracked hand, but 13 others might save you but might also do so for the villain.
And if the rest pop up and you lose the hand.

[Sprayed]

What I mean with that, is that a SF draw is like a fn mirage. It looks almighty, but a hidden set wight beat you (if the board pairs on the turn or river, and it would be particularly ironic if that card would give you a flush), an Ace high flush might beat you etc.
Two cards in that deck will let you complete the almighty, cannot be cracked hand, but 13 others might save you but might also do so for the villain.
And if the rest pop up and you lose the hand.

You're being results oriented. A str8 flush draw is an extremely powerful draw and getting your chips in is never wrong. You will never be 100% sure what they have unless you see their cards. Therefore, playing scared and folding because you think they have a set or could have the same FD with a higher card than yours is silly, IMO. With monster draws, you are looking to win the hand on the flop by pushing or reraising and making them fold. You really don't want to go the distance. But if they call, you have so many outs to win.

[Wikkiwikki]

You have to push all-in with a str8 Flush draw with 2 cards to come - just too many outs to ever fold , your almost always the favorite to win.

[JeffreyGB]

Someone said someting about pushing before your opp could...That's clearly ridiculous with 1500 chips in a 120 chip pot.

Also, FWIW, I think you're going to see pairs of any rank make this play as often as you see it from a set. His overbet is not an indication of strength. Sometimes he's strong. Nearly as often, he just thinks you're not strong enough to call him.

Your call was fine. You were in decent shape against what he had, and in good-to-excellent shape against most other holdings.

A preflop raise here is an interesting line. It certainly holds some merit. The limper makes it a little tougher, but also makes your raise look stronger.