Uber sick hand OMFG (hypothetical)

[IowaSkinsFan]

Hypothetical situation. Opp is a 22/18/3 reg who doesn't get too out of line. I'm not sure how much he overvalues hands, i have a note that he is decent. and highly doubt he's ever been in this type of situation before. At what raise amount is a fold standard? And if it's some really really large amount what line would opp have to take to get you to fold?

POKERSTARS GAME #9428910400: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/27 - 01:28:43 (ET)
Table 'Philippina' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: redgrape ($1202.05 in chips)
Seat 2: DynaRider ($218.35 in chips)
Seat 3: vapes ($134.85 in chips)
Seat 4: fourboys1 ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: mfhard ($1328.70 in chips)
Seat 6: FlushyJack ($204.30 in chips)
redgrape: posts small blind $1
DynaRider: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [8h 8s]
vapes: folds
fourboys1: folds
vapes leaves the table
mfhard: raises $6 to $8
FlushyJack: folds
redgrape: raises $24 to $32
DynaRider: folds
ZBTHorton1 joins the table at seat #3
mfhard: calls $24
*** FLOP *** [4s 9h 8d]
redgrape: bets $60
mfhard: raises $123 to $183
redgrape: raises $227 to $400
mfhard raises $897.70 to $1297.70 and is all in
redgrape: folds

[JL]

OMFG that is so sick.
Are you serious you guys both have over 1000BBs? *thinks of a hand posted by sauce that didn't really happen*

Obv. you can't fold unless you can see his cards.

[IowaSkinsFan]

This hand never happened, and no we are 600bb deep.
This is based on a discussion with sauce i had that you'd probably have to be a 1000bb deep to ever fold middle set.

[JL]

This hand never happened, and no we are 600bb deep.

lol...back to math class I go.

[sauce123]

insta call

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I think your odds are too good at this point, 44 is definitely a good possibility. And if you haven't been three-betting light he may just assume you have AA or KK, or he could have it himself (ok pretty doubtful there). He could easily do this with a straight draw too...

[bigspenda73]

Um.....your PF 3bet needs to be a lot bigger this deep.

[aislephive]

This is a call and it's not really close.

44 is close.

[Galapogos]

Um.....your PF 3bet needs to be a lot bigger this deep.

Why?

And I think this has to be a call here even this deep. He could be doing this with more hands than 99.

[bigspenda73]

Um.....your PF 3bet needs to be a lot bigger this deep.

Why?

And I think this has to be a call here even this deep. He could be doing this with more hands than 99.

Well with 88 I guess it doesn't have to be bigger because we shouldn't have to worry about stacking off here, but if we're 3betting AA/KK this deep shouldn't we be 3betting relative to stack sizes and not the blinds.

[sauce123]

no

[Galapogos]

Um.....your PF 3bet needs to be a lot bigger this deep.

Why?

And I think this has to be a call here even this deep. He could be doing this with more hands than 99.

Well with 88 I guess it doesn't have to be bigger because we shouldn't have to worry about stacking off here, but if we're 3betting AA/KK this deep shouldn't we be 3betting relative to stack sizes and not the blinds.

No because when you're this deep after 3-betting preflop there is still lots of room to play some poker. Your 3-betting range should also be wider when you're both this deep too because you want to set up the potential to play a big pot if you hit whatever hand you have huge.

[bigspenda73]

So with AA/KK you're fine with giving someone set odds here?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Considering how light i am threebetting here i like to raise standard for pot control.

How deep do we have to be for anyone to ever fold middle set?

[Galapogos]

So with AA/KK you're fine with giving someone set odds here?

Well, it's pretty hard not to first of all. Plus you have a wider 3-betting range than AA-KK as it is, and I wouldn't feel too good 3-betting $120 (or whatever) with AQ and then him pushing, or even playing the hand for that matter.

You are way less commited with AA-KK here post flop than you would be with 100bbs. He's not going to be pushing lightly, so if he does start playing hard at you it's very easy to pitch AA.

But the main thing to consider, is when you're deep you're not playing stack-off poker like when you have 100bbs. There is no way a set is stacking you while you hold just AA when you're both this deep. The most he will get off you is likely 100bbs anyway, which you have given him incorrect odds for.

[IowaSkinsFan]

If i my reraising range was tight (AA-JJ/AK), it'd actually be better to raise less because there is no way to deny him set odds so we might as well give us the best chance to get away from the hand.

[bigspenda73]

This is good cuz I have little exp. playing deep and can only go by what i've read.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

When you're this deep you should ruin your image enough to the point where he'll pay you off here with worse.

[IowaSkinsFan]

When you're this deep you should ruin your image enough to the point where he'll pay you off here with worse.

If you're good.

[aislephive]

Considering how light i am threebetting here i like to raise standard for pot control.

How deep do we have to be for anyone to ever fold middle set?

Why does it really matter? Like if we have AA on A2234 board, if we're 10,000 BB deep do you stack off, etc. Who cares? It's not like it will ever happen to you.

[gabe]

its not like the hands are only a function of stack size too

[Renton]

its really easy to stack off here. Basically when you rr preflop, you change what would normally be a 600bb (raised) pot to an effective 150bb (reraised) pot. Would you fold middle set here to a v aggressive player if you had 150bb and it was only a raised pot? cuz its the same thing.

[mcatdog]

its really easy to stack off here. Basically when you rr preflop, you change what would normally be a 600bb (raised) pot to an effective 150bb (reraised) pot. Would you fold middle set here to a v aggressive player if you had 150bb and it was only a raised pot? cuz its the same thing.

This isn't quite true because villain's range is stronger in a rr pot than just in a raised pot, but it's still a very easy call.

[Pelion]

This isn't quite true because villain's range is stronger in a rr pot than just in a raised pot, but it's still a very easy call.

Except that flop missed most of his range.

[griffey24]

I'm gonna have to agree with most of the posts so far.

If this was 100 BB's and you raised and faced a push you would call. Why?
-because you think you are ahead and
-because you're pot committed anyhow due to pot odds

If this was 200 BB's or 300 BB's and you raised and faced a push, you would call. Why?
-no longer because of pot odds, but because you think you are legitimately ahead. WAY ahead infact, of his range.

I think if you're calling with 200-300 BB's, it makes no difference that this is 600 BB's. CALL central!

[Pelion]

I think if you're calling with 200-300 BB's, it makes no difference that this is 600 BB's. CALL central!

Before he decides to push he goes through the same thought process to decide how likely he is to be ahead.

If hes bluffing then he works out his pot odds (probably).

The bigger the stack sizes the less likely he is to be bluffing and the stronger his pushing range is here because he knows we will call with a stronger range.

I also think we are ahead most of the time here.

[griffey24]

The bigger the stack sizes the less likely he is to be bluffing and the stronger his pushing range is here because he knows we will call with a stronger range.

Can't we look at this another way?

The bigger the stacks, the more money behind, the MORE fold equity he thinks he has and therefore the MORE likely he is to be bluffing.

[sauce123]

So with AA/KK you're fine with giving someone set odds here?

Yes, this is also true of 100 bb. I 3bet a very wide range both in and out of position and I would say I almost always give my opponents "set odds" (as in they have to call off about 10% of stack pre).

However, if the flop comes J75 rainbow and I cbet and they shove, against some opponents I can fold AA KK. Also, they are calling one, maybe 2 bets here with any pair on this same flop and so because of my wide 3betting range and ability to bluff cbet and bluff 2barrel even in 3bet pots, the times they stack off with 88 on this board more than compensate for the times they stack me with 77 on this board. (note, the type of opponent who stacks off with 88 on this board and the type that I can fold AA KK to are usually different types of opponents lol)

This becomes even more true deep, except position becomes much, much, much more powerful, to the point where its not too far from optimal to 3bet a tag with any two suited connected or one gapped, pairs, and big hands from position to create action and force him to bluff 4bet or play pots with you OOP. And by widening your range here, it becomes better to make your 3bets not more than 3x their opening raise, as bluff 4bets will happen, where its usually better for us if the pot is kept to a reasonable size. At some point ill make a more detailed post on this topic cause its interesting.

[Pelion]

The bigger the stack sizes the less likely he is to be bluffing and the stronger his pushing range is here because he knows we will call with a stronger range.

Can't we look at this another way?

The bigger the stacks, the more money behind, the MORE fold equity he thinks he has and therefore the MORE likely he is to be bluffing.

I dont think so. The bigger the stack sizes the more likely he is to be making "big" (pot size ish) bluffs up to the turn since there is much more implied threat of a big river bet. However it is less likely he will make massive allin overbet bluff since he will have to make us fold so much more often when his bet is several times the size of the pot.

[IowaSkinsFan]

So with AA/KK you're fine with giving someone set odds here?

Yes, this is also true of 100 bb. I 3bet a very wide range both in and out of position and I would say I almost always give my opponents "set odds" (as in they have to call off about 10% of stack pre).

However, if the flop comes J75 rainbow and I cbet and they shove, against some opponents I can fold AA KK. Also, they are calling one, maybe 2 bets here with any pair on this same flop and so because of my wide 3betting range and ability to bluff cbet and bluff 2barrel even in 3bet pots, the times they stack off with 88 on this board more than compensate for the times they stack me with 77 on this board. (note, the type of opponent who stacks off with 88 on this board and the type that I can fold AA KK to are usually different types of opponents lol)

This becomes even more true deep, except position becomes much, much, much more powerful, to the point where its not too far from optimal to 3bet a tag with any two suited connected or one gapped, pairs, and big hands from position to create action and force him to bluff 4bet or play pots with you OOP. And by widening your range here, it becomes better to make your 3bets not more than 3x their opening raise, as bluff 4bets will happen, where its usually better for us if the pot is kept to a reasonable size. At some point ill make a more detailed post on this topic cause its interesting.

why can't you make long posts like this more often n00b?

[Renton]

This isn't quite true because villain's range is stronger in a rr pot

his range is actually weaker in a rr pot given that we have a set