folded KK... did i play this right?

[grasshoppah]

We'd just come out of the rebuy hour. Villain has played 468 MTT, made 18 final tables, and cashed 97 times... 10k in winnings. It seemed he had been playing loose aggressive during the 2nd hour, perhaps taking advantage of people tightening up after the rebuy hour. He had showed a bluff from the SB when the BU limped in... they went to a scary river card... BU checked he bet the pot (about 2K) and took it down then showed the bluff with complete air.

Should i have bet the turn? Is his bet a play or a good player betting to get me out of a draw? What is he putting me on after my 4xbb raise and flop bet?

-----Hand 27-----
Heros M = 38.37
PokerStars Game #9864941827: Tournament #49447553, $3.00+$0.30 Holdem No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/05/11 - 21:39:38 (ET)
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.1w) from http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com
Table 49447553 165 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Hero (20146 in chips)
Seat 2: spongerob (5100 in chips)
Seat 3: CORSPAPA (29509 in chips)
Seat 4: mlg1952 (37370 in chips)
Seat 5: BDG79 (8658 in chips)
Seat 6: BulletsMcGee (22858 in chips)
Seat 7: EasyRider66 (10205 in chips)
Seat 8: chadbrandt1 (18874 in chips)
Seat 9: muchado30 (8125 in chips)
All players post the ante 25
EasyRider66: posts small blind 100
chadbrandt1: posts big blind 200
Preflop: Hero dealt K K
muchado30: folds
Hero: raises 600 to 800
spongerob: folds
CORSPAPA: folds
mlg1952: folds
BDG79: calls 800
BulletsMcGee: calls 800
EasyRider66: folds
chadbrandt1: folds
Flop: 7 A Q
Hero: bets 1800
BDG79: folds
BulletsMcGee: calls 1800
Turn: T
Hero: checks
BulletsMcGee: bets 4000
Hero: folds
BulletsMcGee collected 6525 from pot

[Ash256]

I think you should check the flop, as played, folding turn is fine.

[grasshoppah]

i would never check this flop.... NEVER!!

i have to bet to find out where he is.

I could be holding AK for all he knows... or AQ.

checking this flop is a scared play. folding the turn is right i guess... but should i have bet the turn?

he could have 77 trying to hit a set and stack me... 89s hoping to hit big or get a great draw and stack me. Its early... our M's our huge... his calling range is fairly wide IMO. granted he could have AK or AQ... and probably did... so folding the turn is right. but i have to bet the flop don't i?

anyone agree with that analysis? am i completely off?

[Ash256]

Someone who has it bookmarked needs to find the "KK with an ace!" thread by gabe. It is so obscenely important to this thread.

[grasshoppah]

is it just that your likely caller of 4xbb (they have position) has an Ace?

why must you automatically assume that? you have to "protect" your hand right?

i'm a rookie so please someone set me straight on this. i just think KK is to valueable of a hand to just check an A flop. how does your caller know you have KK or QQ? you could have AK.

again... folding turn is appropriate unless you have a really solid read.

i'm open to hearing any argument on this (or anything else for that matter).

[Jack Sawyer]

is it just that your likely caller of 4xbb (they have position) has an Ace?

why must you automatically assume that? you have to "protect" your hand right?

i'm a rookie so please someone set me straight on this. i just think KK is to valueable of a hand to just check an A flop. how does your caller know you have KK or QQ? you could have AK.

again... folding turn is appropriate unless you have a really solid read.

i'm open to hearing any argument on this (or anything else for that matter).

You started w/ 100x BB.
As played, you lost 13x BB (4 + 9), knowing you'd fold.

[JeffreyGB]

Here's gabe's thread:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...light=ace+flop

Essentially the thinking in checking the flop here is that you're basically only getting action when you're beat and that you're rarely getting a fold when you're behind (any Ax he called with preflop is calling here too).

There's also the argument that checking actually looks stronger to some thinking opponents. That's probably not worth considering for a $3r/a, but could come in to play in other situations.

Part of the problem here with that line is that you're out of position, so you can't control the pot size as well as otherwise. If you check/call down, you're going to be facing at least one extra bet, which in NL could be a very sizeable thing. You're liable to make less the times that you're ahead here by betting, but you're also liable to lose less when you're behind.

Without a read that my opponent will both test me on repping the A and try to rep it himself without it, I think you played it fine.

[grasshoppah]

thanks jeff.

i obviously hadn't thought of it like that. and i see how that logic makes great sense in a game with more thinking players. it's a good way of thinking about the situation in general as well... thanks for the perspective.

what would you do on the turn if you both checked the flop?... being your first to act and the turn is benign.

i ended up finishing 22 out of 2512 in that tourney. not bad considering i am still a novice. i've finished 9, 15, 20 and 22nd in those.... out of 17 entries. i really like the strategy of NLHE and want to learn how to play situations and people.

[JeffreyGB]

what would you do on the turn if you both checked the flop?... being your first to act and the turn is benign.

I'm very likely to bet there, but it still comes down to reads a bit. His checking behind on the flop makes it much more likely that he doesn't have the A. If he'll bet without it on the turn, then it probably makes much more sense to check the turn as well.

[JeffreyGB]

As I said above though, being out of position makes the case for betting a lot stronger on the flop.

[taipan168]

BTW, you really should post this in the MTT forum. Let me know if you want me to move it.

[grasshoppah]

yea ok. go ahead and move it.

[taipan168]

{Moved to MTT Tactics}