Best way to counter stop and go moves?

[LordVTR]

I have noticed recently in the low buy in tourneys I play on Stars, a lot of players (usually the larger stacks) using the stop and go when blinds hit 300/600+. A typical example would be me raising with AK from say MP or CO, one caller from the blinds. Flop comes something like 3 9 J with 2 suited. Caller pushes knowing he has my stack covered. Is this usually a pre planned play by the caller and a bluff/semi bluff? And even if it is, can I really call in this spot? Seems too risky to me to risk my tourney life finding out!! Any suggestions how to counter this type of play?

[Da GOAT]

open shove PF

[drmcboy]

open shove PF

this is certainly option 1

how big is your stack?

Nothing wrong with calling with AK/AQ sometimes if you feel it, esepcially on a flop like that with a few draws they could be on.

[LordVTR]

If I have less than 10BB I open shove anyway.

This situation usually happens when I have a medium stack of around 15-20BB. I know that often the big stacks will call raises with ATC and if they get a piece of the flop they bet it hard, or if its a low uncoordinated flop, they shove knowing we probably have 2 high cards and are going to have a tough time calling. Is open shoving with 15-20 BB the way ahead then?

[swiggidy]

stop trying to steal from the big stacks, especially if they seem tricky

If they are tricky (or stupid and call with any 2), open-limp pre so you're playing with a larger effective stack.

[TrAdam5]

If I have less than 10BB I open shove anyway.

This situation usually happens when I have a medium stack of around 15-20BB. I know that often the big stacks will call raises with ATC and if they get a piece of the flop they bet it hard, or if its a low uncoordinated flop, they shove knowing we probably have 2 high cards and are going to have a tough time calling. Is open shoving with 15-20 BB the way ahead then?

If you have 15-20 BBs and raise 3x the BB, then when they shove if you fold u still have 12-17 BBs. However, if they shove at the wrong time at you you are now going to double up risking a fairly small portion of your stack. So, if they want to risk 15-20 bbs to pick up 3 of your bbs, in the long run I believe it is profitable. That's not too say you can't ever look them up with ace high on a 2 3 10 flop when you simply don't think they have a pp. Between the likelihood that you have a PP or hit the flop though u have I'd say roughly a 40% chance of hitting, so the odds are in your favor.
I think the stop and go is most effective with people who have 8-12 BBs who don't open shove, but since you are pushing 10 BBs and under you are largely already combatting that.

[drmcboy]

Yeah, basically if I'm reading you right you're raising 3x and they are shoving enough on the flop to commit them against your 15xBB (+) stack.

So:

Don't steal - this inludes not raising with weak PPs, which should maybe be limped here as swig suggested along with other marginal hands you might normally raise.

You should hit 1/3 flops.

2/3 - you lose 3x

1/3 you win a 15x stack. Even allowing for times when they flop a better hand or outrun you, you should be OK just giving up when you miss. The bigger your stack the more true this will be.

[LimpinAintEZ]

i would put big stack on a pair here - maybe the Jack, maybe just the 9 or maybe even just a lower pp - Either way, he is putting you on AK, AQ, KQs or something like that and this flop missed you completely - Its a good move - If he has a read on you like maybe you are raise 5 or 6x BB with big pocket pairs (?) and standard with just big cards, then this is a good move by him - Countering wise, I don't mind giving it up on this flop at all - You can raise a couple more BB's next time or vary your betting in general (this is not a big portion of villains reading ability, i just like to do it when you can) - I personally cannot advocate open limping with AK, especially in a tourney - you gotta play your good cards strong and take some chances -

I find a bonus of raising preflop then folding to the flop bet is that players will think they can do that to me again...next time I may have the goods and take a large portion of their stack when they put me on a missed flop and think they can push with crap (players thinking you can be pushed around is something I try to use to my advantage - maybe thats dumb though)

[LimpinAintEZ]

then again, pushing when blinds are this high can't be bad. If you take down the blinds, you gain at least 900 in your stack - if you are called, you are in a race against everything but the very best hands....

I would fold AK to someone raising before me (with a read that they are tight) before I would open limp with it...you don't want 3 players behind you just calling 1BB or 1/2BB to hit something weird - especially if you hit an A or K, cause how can you fold then if they hit 2 pair?

I see that your protecting a couple big blinds by just limping - and maybe you can hit the flop hard and nobody will suspect you limped with AK...but overall, doesn't it make the postflop decisions a lot easier when you raise out the garbage? plus, it just seems very weak to play AK like that...doesn't it?

last edit - how is it stealing by raising AK here or anywhere? i don't get that part of the discussion...

[Rondavu]

Raise AA and call when they open push. Obviously I'm kidding, but you have a hand sometimes, so there is value against someone who is blindly abusing you in this manner.

[LimpinAintEZ]

my thinking might be totally wrong because i personally don't care for AK much - in fact i've almost come to the point where I hate it - Its almost like i KNOW its supposed to be good, so i try and play it strong...but i hate getting in big battles with it - If I have a decent stack, I will open raise with it - I don't mind going with it all the way if I hit, but I get away from it if I miss - I will just do a standard C-bet and be prepared to let it go...Its one of the hands for me that I play it like i'm "supposed" to - but I really hate to lose my tourney or a large portion of my stack on that hand - I don't mind getting all in when short stacked, but most of the time i'm just looking to take down the blinds or the pot on the flop - any more action than that and i lose lots of confidence with it....

i'm sure i'm doing something wrong, but it has burned me because I think its so strong because it is a top hand and I used to not let it go - I have a lot of tourney leaks though and have cashed only 2x in my last several tourneys (and barely making the bubble kind of cashes, so not playing well at all) -

[LordVTR]

LimpinAintEZ wrote:

i would put big stack on a pair here - maybe the Jack, maybe just the 9 or maybe even just a lower pp - Either way, he is putting you on AK, AQ, KQs or something like that and this flop missed you completely - Its a good move - If he has a read on you like maybe you are raise 5 or 6x BB with big pocket pairs (?)

My PF raises are standard 3xBB +1BB per limper whether I have AA or 2 high cards, so I villains can't read my pocket cards by size of my PF bets. I do tend to cbet flop whether I hit or miss unless there are 3+ callers or I get faced with the stop n go situation as described in original post. Generally if i meet resistance on the flop, I will let it go there and wait for a better spot. Maybe some villains read this as weak and think I will always fold to a raise after cbet or if they bet first when I have position. Like limpin says, this can have its advantages if villain is v aggro and thinks he can do it all the time.

drmcboy wrote:

Don't steal - this inludes not raising with weak PPs, which should maybe be limped here as swig suggested along with other marginal hands you might normally raise.

I rarely try stealing until blinds are worth it unless BB is seen to be weak or I have a huge stack. I usually play fairly conservatively until my M dictates I have to start playing more marginal hands. I'm finding this is quite successful in these tourneys as probably half the field have no clue and will kill themselves eventually even if they do get a big stack early on.

Will give swiggidy's limp suggestion a try, although I guess the downside of this is the increased number seeing the flop reducing our chances even more.

Appreciate all your comments everyone.

[swiggidy]

lmpin brought up a good point about stealing vs raising. With AK, raising, even into a big stack, is likely correct. With one limper already you basically have to raise. I was thinking more in terms of "stealing" the flop by limp/betting ATC, instead of stealing by raising pre-flop (where people will call too much).

It sucks when you miss the flop, but when they push you pretty much have to let it go.