ICM and good players?

[boom3r]

Lately i've been getting into the whole ICM stuff, read about it before, but kind of brushed it off thinking i didn't need it, but apparently i do. So i needed some help with it and I know a few real good online players who make very very good profit, but neither of them new of this (ICM) when i asked about it...anyone have any ideas on why? I mean do most online pro's go by this or was it weird that i ran into some people who didn't. I should mention one of these players is strictly HU at the 200 level, and another is a high level mtt player.

[taipan168]

They've probably never heard of ICM because ICM is most applicable to single table SNGs because payout structure is very steep between 4th and 3rd but reasonably shallow after that. On the bubble of a single table SNG is where chip EV diverges the most from $ EV, and therefore where ICM comes most into play. I can guarantee you that all the top single table SNG players understand ICM back to front!

ICM doesn't really apply HU because chip EV = $ EV apart from the rake. In big MTTs chip EV diverges very gradually from $ EV due to the very shallow difference between ITM and OTM but the very steep difference in payout between just ITM and 1st-3rd.

[meeloche]

For someone who doens't play sit and go's what is ICM and does it have any relevance to mtt and cash?

[taipan168]

For someone who doens't play sit and go's what is ICM and does it have any relevance to mtt and cash?

It is referenced in the FAQs (yes I know I need to update it) but probably the best explanation is here.

ICM has no application to cash games since chips = cash but does have some applicability to MTTs - but as I said above, because the payout structure is much shallower I don't think it's as crucial.

[fdnypoker]

Hey Taipan...that link you included is great. I, like many I'm sure, calculate my pot odds using chip counts/pot size etc. The way this article explains the value of each ship completely changes this concept.

I've been a relatively successful S/G player both online and in home games/casinos w/o using the ICM model. Do you think taking the time to learn and apply this methodology will increase my ROI?

Is it possible to calculate ICM EV during a real game or is knowing or understanding the concept behind ICM and chip values good enough. It seems next to impossible to do some of these calculations in your head.

[Sprayed]

Hey Taipan...that link you included is great. I, like many I'm sure, calculate my pot odds using chip counts/pot size etc. The way this article explains the value of each ship completely changes this concept.

I've been a relatively successful S/G player both online and in home games/casinos w/o using the ICM model. Do you think taking the time to learn and apply this methodology will increase my ROI?

Is it possible to calculate ICM EV during a real game or is knowing or understanding the concept behind ICM and chip values good enough. It seems next to impossible to do some of these calculations in your head.

The whole idea for ICM is to practice enough to where you are familiar with scenarios in game time situations. It's not meant to be done in your head at the table. Knowing pot odds is very important in large MTTs and cash games, however for tounreys that only have few payouts, ICM comes more into play.

[taipan168]

I've been a relatively successful S/G player both online and in home games/casinos w/o using the ICM model. Do you think taking the time to learn and apply this methodology will increase my ROI?

Yes! The thing is at low buyin SNGs opps are so bad that you can be a winning player just by playing TAgg early and LAgg late. Understanding ICM will definitely increase your ROI though and is essential if you want to move up.

The classic example that I like to use of the divergence between chip EV and $ EV is the following:

Villain (CO) 5500
Hero (Button) 5000
SB 1500
BB 1500

Hero has AKo. Blinds 200/400 ante 25. Villain has shoved the last 5 hands and true to form, he shoves again. Even though Villain is very likely shoving any two cards here, this is a super insta presto fold from an ICM point of view (which is all that counts here) but a super insta presto call from a CHIP point of view. By understanding ICM you know that there is NO choice other than folding here.

Is it possible to calculate ICM EV during a real game or is knowing or understanding the concept behind ICM and chip values good enough. It seems next to impossible to do some of these calculations in your head.

As Sprayed said, the idea is to study this after the game so that you hone your instinct as to what to do in a game. Eg. understanding that if it's folded to you in the SB and either you or the BB have <10x BB, it is almost always +EV to shove with any two cards.