Was this dumb?

[bjsaust]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1130)
UTG+1 (t2690)
MP1 (t1480)
MP2 (t850)
MP3 (t1330)
CO (t1165)
Hero (t1655)
SB (t1890)
BB (t1310)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 6.
5 folds, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t120, 2 folds, CO calls t90.

Flop: (t285) 5, J, A (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets t230, CO raises to t1045, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1560


I normally dont bother with steals when blinds are low and theres a lot of players, but have been wondering if I should still look for chances. Right at that point this hand came along so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Opp had raised AK 4xBB 2nd hand on table and I called with a pair of 3's, called a small c-bet from him when I missed the flop but had a flush draw then checked it down to win. This should mean he's not playing AK, but who knows if he's got AQ or even AJ? He's either pushing me off with not much, or got a monster, but my weak kicker means I cant play.

So generally speaking, should I go back to ignoring steal opportunities early on?

[badgers]

but my weak kicker means I cant play.

That's the most important thing you've said imo. You can't play the hand with any confidence, and I don't like stealing with a limper. And, although thinking about table image can be wrong at low levels, players can get frustrated if you've been blind stealing all game. I just let this go.

[taipan168]

Personally I would just let this go, even from the button, with the limper in front. If it's folded to you then I open raise it every time unless I have a read that the blinds regularly re-raise.

As played, postflop is fine. You are almost certainly beat here.

[bjsaust]

Actually lets put a few hands down, call the above one Hand 1.

Hand 2:

Same game as prev, same thinking. Turn was based on a timing read, I was sure he hadnt hit that flop, so thought a 2nd barrel which put him to a choice of all his chips might work.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 (t1197)
MP1 (t1990)
MP2 (t2685)
CO (t2295)
Button (t1440)
Hero (t2120)
BB (t1578)
UTG (t195)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, A.
6 folds, Hero raises to t300, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t600) 7, 3, 6 (2 players)
Hero bets t400, BB calls t400.

Turn: (t1400) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t900, BB calls t878 (All-In).

River: (t3178) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3178


Hand 3

Different game, I know the PF raise was dumb (too low). I had visions of taking lots of people along and taking all their money. I think the flop was dumb too. With that many people, someone had to have an A making a c-bet a bad move.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO (t1500)
Button (t1490)
Hero (t1480)
BB (t1530)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K.
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP3 calls t20, 1 fold, Button calls t20, Hero raises to t100, BB calls t80, MP1 calls t80, MP3 calls t80, Button folds.

Flop: (t420) 4, A, 9 (4 players)
Hero bets t250, BB calls t250, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t250.

Turn: (t1170) 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP3 bets t160, Hero folds, BB calls t160.

River: (t1490) 5 (2 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets t300, BB folds.

Final Pot: t1790



Hand 4:

Here I decided to take drmcboys advice and raise with TT and play it as a strong hand. The small raise on the flop smelt more like a J than an A hitting.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1450)
Hero (t1130)
CO (t1040)
Button (t1470)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1450)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t2480)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T, T.
4 folds, Hero raises to t80, 3 folds, BB calls t60.

Flop: (t170) 2, A, J (2 players)
BB bets t60, Hero raises to t220, BB folds.

Final Pot: t450



I'm thinking reading all those experiment threads might have me a bit excited, and I'm trying some fancy poker when all I really should be doing is sticking to the ABCs.

[bjsaust]

So you think I should look at introducing blind steals at low blinds into my game, but not with limpers?

[badgers]

2 preflop is good, flop is good, turn is scary without being really sure of reads.

3 I just check/fold flop vs. 3 opps. 1 is bound to have an A.

4 Again you need monster reads to do this. I just limp preflop, but if drmcboy says raise, def ignore me.

[bjsaust]

I might have misunderstood his advice, in the particular hand there were limpers in front which might affect things.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-56236.htm

[bjsaust]

Hand 5:

I know I played this badly, but not sure how I was supposed to. My minds got all messed up after some of the above .

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t2665)
SB (t675)
Hero (t1172)
UTG (t1000)
MP1 (t3630)
MP2 (t3025)
CO (t1333)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 7.
UTG calls t100, 4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 2, A, 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, UTG calls t200, SB folds.

Turn: (t700) T (2 players)
Hero bets t400, UTG raises to t700, Hero calls t300.

River: (t2100) 8 (2 players)

Final Pot: t2100


Hand 6:

Whats the right move PF with this one?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t2515)
SB (t475)
Hero (t2222)
UTG (t3930)
MP (t3175)
CO (t1183)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 8.
1 fold, MP raises to t300, 3 folds, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t650) 5, Q, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t500, MP folds.

Final Pot: t1150

[badgers]

5: Shove turn

6: I fold preflop.

TT hand is messing with my head. Overcards come so frequently I can't raise and be confident in my postflop ability. Maybe he can.

[taipan168]

Hand 2 - preflop and flop are fine. Once he calls my c-bet I give up on the turn since I didn't improve. Most low buyin players won't call a c-bet with at least some piece of the flop or a draw and given the flop came low and rainbow I'd say you're beat once he calls your flop bet.

Hand 3 - you're right, your PF raise is too low. 140-160 to go here. Badgers is right, with 3 opps one of them is sure to have the A. If you got just one caller I would c-bet it though.

Hand 4 - preflop is fine from late MP. Flop raise is very read dependent, I'd want to see that opp had folded after donkbetting before doing this, particularly with two overcards one of which is an A.

Hand 5 - just put opp AI on the turn with top pair and the nut flush draw.

Hand 6 - just fold it preflop.

[bjsaust]

Hand 2 my read was right that he'd missed flop (and turn), unfortunately he called with AJ and won with better kickers. You're right though, I should have given hand up on the turn. Interestingly on next game I was in a similar situation with AJ and played exactly the same except checked down turn and river and split the pot with an opp who had AJ that time too.


Hand 6: Ok. I'm just trying to workout where/when calling comes into my game when we're moving into the latter parts of the game. I think at the moment I take the term push/fold a bit too literally.

[taipan168]

Hand 6: Ok. I'm just trying to workout where/when calling comes into my game when we're moving into the latter parts of the game. I think at the moment I take the term push/fold a bit too literally.

Perhaps the only time I'd call a raise rather than shoving over is if the raise comes from the SB, I'm in the BB and I want to pull a stop 'n' go - which at low buyins should be almost never.

[mcatdog]

I will always be an advocate of stealing blinds on the first two levels of a SnG. There are usually a few people throwing their money away right from the get go and I love to see flops against those people in position even if my hand isn't that great. By the time the blinds get big, most of them will be gone. I understand that you gain equity by letting the donks knock each other out, but if you're good I think you gain even more by taking their chips yourself.

That being said, being a good blind-stealer is hard, much harder than knowing what to do when you have 8 BB left. You have a ways to go but it's good that you're working on it, it'll make you a better player.

Hand 1 - Stealing blinds is fine, but you want to at least have a hand with the potential to hit the flop hard. A6 barely ever hits a flop that you're happy to go all-in on. With small blinds, it's one of the worst hands in the deck. Just fold it.

Hand 2 - This is a blind battle, you played it fine. In a blind battle when the flop is all low cards, no one ever has anything and people always try to steal the pot anyway. Turn 7 was a good card for you because it makes it less likely he hit the flop. I think giving up on the turn is bad against a lot of players.

Hand 3 - When there's 3 or more limpers my standard raise is 8 BB. Definitely give up on the flop. You bluffed into 3 other players when you were likely to have two outs. Don't ever do that again.

Hand 4 - Same as Hand 3, stop bluffing when you have two outs. It seems like you're bluffing because you had a good starting hand and you're pissed off that you hit a bad flop. When you think someone's weak you should be more likely to bluff with hands that might have outs (for example, if I thought his flop bet was weak, I'd raise it here if I had KQ because I'd have a gutshot and possible pair outs in case he calls me with a J, but with TT it's just not worth it).

Hand 5 - fine

Hand 6 - Man just fold those aces with bad kickers, they suck unless you have a short stack in which case they're good hands to push with if it's folded to you but other than that they're not worth much.

[mcatdog]

Perhaps the only time I'd call a raise rather than shoving over is if the raise comes from the SB, I'm in the BB and I want to pull a stop 'n' go - which at low buyins should be almost never.

I call sometimes with AA if the raise comes from a bad TAG whom I'm sure is going to fold to a shove, and I'd rather pick off his c-bet instead. I don't do that very often though, maybe once every couple of weeks and I play a lot.

[bjsaust]

Hand 4 - Same as Hand 3, stop bluffing when you have two outs. It seems like you're bluffing because you had a good starting hand and you're pissed off that you hit a bad flop. When you think someone's weak you should be more likely to bluff with hands that might have outs (for example, if I thought his flop bet was weak, I'd raise it here if I had KQ because I'd have a gutshot and possible pair outs in case he calls me with a J, but with TT it's just not worth it).

Hand 3 was definately a 'tilt' thing. I knew that c-bet was bad but did it anyway. Hand 4 wasnt. It was a hand I was prepared to let go of, but I really read that small flop lead as weakness, and felt a reraise was a good move based on that read. Its not a hand I'd take any further if called. Is that a mistake? Should a bluff like this always have some outs incase its called?

[mcatdog]

If you're really sure he'll fold, bluffing with no outs is fine I guess, but I really doubt this raise gets him to fold ~50% of the time. People lead the flop with an ace all the time here.

[bjsaust]

Ok, thanks. I might be reading too much into a bet size at a buy in level where it may not mean anything.

[baron_greenback]

The most important thing when stealing/buying pots is to be clearly representing something. Hand 4, you get it right, whereas hand 2 you get it horribly wrong.

In hand 4, what can opp put you on? You've bet pre-flop, and raised his weak bet. He must think you have the A, and probably puts you on AK. Anything that beats what you are representing plays this hand differently as well, so we're pretty safe.

However, in hand 2, what are you claiming to hold? If you have hit the 7, then you'd want to take the pot down there and then, not build it up. All you beat here is complete air, and that's never ideal.

You need to make steals to win any tournaments, but as with all other play, it has to be thought out, and you must have a plan for when you get called/re-raised.

Another thing to watch out for is 'I decided to play TT as a strong hand'. After that flop, your TT has become 7-2. While the play was good, it had nothign to do with the fact you were holding TT.

[bjsaust]

Agreed, other than the fact that by representing it as a strong hand PF, it lent weight to my reraise post flop. I wasnt playing to win with TT, I was bluffing to steal the pot having represented a strong hand PF. If I'd limped TT like I used to, theres no way I would try this steal.

[mcatdog]

However, in hand 2, what are you claiming to hold? If you have hit the 7, then you'd want to take the pot down there and then, not build it up. All you beat here is complete air, and that's never ideal.

He raised pre-flop, bet the flop, and went all-in on the turn. How is he not clearly representing something? I'm pretty sure he would (or at least should) play the same way with any pair. All he beats is complete air but complete air is the villain's most likely holding.

[bjsaust]

I'd have thought I was representing missed AK or AQ, or a pocket pair. Any of which beat AJ. The only way he should call that if he missed too (likely), is if he's sure I was stealing from word go (which I was). It may have been a mistake to put almost all my chips on the line on a bluff this early, but I shouldnt have been called by an opp with nothing himself. I guess the question that really needs to be asked and answered is whether its worth trying a move like this, against the avg opps at $5.50 level. Was I unlucky to hit an opp who will call this, or does a 5.50 villian call this with A high enough times to make it bad?

[baron_greenback]

However, in hand 2, what are you claiming to hold? If you have hit the 7, then you'd want to take the pot down there and then, not build it up. All you beat here is complete air, and that's never ideal.

He raised pre-flop, bet the flop, and went all-in on the turn. How is he not clearly representing something? I'm pretty sure he would (or at least should) play the same way with any pair. All he beats is complete air but complete air is the villain's most likely holding.

After the pre and post flop calls?

I think after being called pre-flop, it's either all-in or fold.

[dstir2]

why you're playing a6o this early on w/ this many ppl is beyond me. if you play poker like that, it is gambling.

[bjsaust]

*shrug*

I was experimenting. It cost me 350 chips to learn that trying to steal in early blinds behind a limper is a bad idea.

[FlyingSaucy]

In the original hand you posted I don't think that preflop was outright bad. I agree that it is a bit laggy but I support that in most situations. I see the raise as meaning: You're looking to take it down pre but if you're called, use position to take it down post. He could be limp calling with a lot of things that whiff the flop.

That said, I would not have bet the flop as much when checked to. A couple of reasons for this.
1. Easier to fold to a check raise when there is a greater gap between your remaining stack and the pot size. Pot control, basically.
2. A big pot bet on the flop tells your opponent that you are betting scared, or possibly even c betting a missed flop. You announced that you are looking to take that pot right now, you announced that you are position betting, therefore your opponent may have decided to check raise bluff you, (possibly holding the same cards as you or worse) whereas he may have folded to a 160-180 size bet. Now with this check raise you don't know what to think and have to default to folding top pair against a limp caller simply because your kicker is weak. It's a good fold, but you set yourself up for it. If you your opponent is unknown or anything other than a known maniac, you have to fold.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, I'm up in the air on that one. If I had a hand, say AQ, then thats the bet I'd make. On the other hand, was I representing a decent hand and extending the bluff, or did I get carried away because I hit top pair and I'm used to playing TP with good kickers since I normally only play good hands? Cant remember to be sure.