I'm starting to think this isn't standard...

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Villain isn't a reg and is like 35/15 over 25 hands. I haven't paid attention to any of his hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($434.40)
Button ($135.55)
SB ($220.40)
BB ($228.80)
UTG ($31)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) J, K, Q (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, Button raises to $40, BB folds, Hero raises to $426.4, Button calls $87.55 (All-In).

Turn: ($578.95) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($578.95) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $578.95

Results:
Hero has 7c Kc (one pair, kings).
Button has Th Ah (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $298.85. Button wins $280.10.

The reason i include results is because it seems that everytime this happens i run into a flopped sick hand. For some reason i thought previously that this was standard, but now i'm starting to think i'm wrong.

Help me out...

[IowaSkinsFan]

i think this is standard but yeah ive been feeling similarly.

[Genitruc]

I was talking to a good player the other day who grinds low-midstakes as much/more than anyone I know and he mentioned that he felt like the flop minraise on draw-heavy boards had evolved from a "feeler" bet into a "value from my nuts" bet.

[zook]

Huh. In my experience the minraise is still a bad player's way of bluffing/semibluffing cheaply. I'll keep an eye out.

I usually play it the same for < 55bb. I think he has a wide range here and you're only slightly behind it.

[IowaSkinsFan]

there's a lot of splits here also.

[SmackinYaUp]

Is this a level? The guy checkminraised you on a board that is TERRIBLE for your hand. He is either feeling you out or he has you smoked and is building a pot. Even the worst players won't check minraise you on this board with a weak hand because its so scary.
That means 3-betting the flop is very bad. Name the likely hands he has that you are beating that he calls with. Now name the likely hands that he has that you are losing to.

[Galapogos]

When a shorty 3-bets it's almost always the goods. Someone with his stack doesn't generally do feeler bets im my experience.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Is this a level? The guy checkminraised you on a board that is TERRIBLE for your hand. He is either feeling you out or he has you smoked and is building a pot. Even the worst players won't check minraise you on this board with a weak hand because its so scary.
That means 3-betting the flop is very bad. Name the likely hands he has that you are beating that he calls with. Now name the likely hands that he has that you are losing to.

this is not a level but THANK GOD someone finally says this so we can discuss it.

A lot of the time I don't see players like this c min raising draws, however i'd expect to see one here probably 15% of the time. About 33% of the time, i expect to see something like Kx (lower than a T), which we split with a lot. We see T9 and QJ here a lot, one which we have 0 equity against and one that we have probably about 30% against.

Idk, I'd really like to get this figured out because I feel like I'm spewing away tons of money here.

[zook]

It's a minraise, not a checkminraise, fwiw.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

the thing is that a minraise just doesn't make sense on a board like this because it's so draw heavy.

[IowaSkinsFan]

the thing is that a minraise just doesn't make sense on a board like this because it's so draw heavy.

You act like your opponent thinks. His raise makes perfect sense

[gabe]

wow K7 allin

[Trikflow77]

does his stack size come into play here, because that is the only reason i can see you or any decent player even considering stacking off with k7 in this spot. Like fuck it its only 50bb if im wrong.

and isf, i really dont think your going to see a minraise with a worse king 35% of the time with this board. Am i wrong?

[mixchange]

when a shorty raises he is usually ready to go all in, you better like your hand. I don't see what is standard about raising PF with K7s not on the button, or about pushing over a shorty who re-raised your flop lead.

[griffey24]

Yah, I'm glad someone said that this wasn't standard as well.

I thought I was losing it here, because I often even fold flat out to the raise on the flop with this tp crap kicker, let alone pushing over with it.

[The Odds God]

I never know what this minraise means and is so sick. Even shorties sometimes decide that they have to make a stand and then they minraise because they play on scared money (at this level, I find that shorties are the nittiest at the table) and can't afford to just push. I find myself bluff 3 betting a lot here, and sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. It is sick. I never know how to play against a minraise.

I hate shorties and their minraise. It is so annoying that I might develop a way to get a minraise in my own style of play, especially when I play against solid villains, because it really is annoying and it might put them off their game.

[IowaSkinsFan]

does his stack size come into play here, because that is the only reason i can see you or any decent player even considering stacking off with k7 in this spot. Like fuck it its only 50bb if im wrong.

and isf, i really dont think your going to see a minraise with a worse king 35% of the time with this board. Am i wrong?

most of the time versus this type of player i see Kx from this raise.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($170.50)
SB ($70.30)
BB ($291.40)
UTG ($79.95)
Hero ($312.90)
CO ($90)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, A.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, CO calls $8, 3 folds.

Flop: ($19) 8, 4, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $16, CO raises to $32, Hero raises to $304.9, CO calls $50 (All-In).

Turn: ($405.90) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($405.90) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $405.90

Resultsbelow:
Hero has 8d As (two pair, aces and eights).
CO has Ad Th (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $405.90. [/color]

[Galapogos]

Why are you raising bad hands from bad position? Is this a regular part of your game or were there some weird table dynamics involved?

[Warpe]

This is spew, pure and simple.

[noble007]

Imo the difference between the two examples you posted is board texture.
A shorties min-raise on a low board (one likely to have missed the preflop raiser) is more often a bluff.
A shorties min-raise on a board likely to have hit the pre-flop raiser
such as JQK board is like a 'value bet' for them.
(They want to get more money in the pot or induce a shove but can't 3 bet properly because they would be devestated if you folded.)

(Though a shorties flop lead into the pfr is still generally a sign of weakness/mediocre hand regardless of texture.)

[griffey24]

Imo the difference between the two examples you posted is board texture.
A shorties min-raise on a low board (one likely to have missed the preflop raiser) is more often a bluff.
A shorties min-raise on a board likely to have hit the pre-flop raiser
such as JQK board is like a 'value bet' for them.
(They want to get more money in the pot or induce a shove but can't 3 bet properly because they would be devestated if you folded.)

(Though a shorties flop lead into the pfr is still generally a sign of weakness/mediocre hand regardless of texture.)

I definitely agree with this, the texture on both boards is completely different.

Also, how often do you really think your push in hand 2 is getting called by something as bad as A10 off? I think you got lucky that villain was a donk in that hand.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Why are you raising bad hands from bad position? Is this a regular part of your game or were there some weird table dynamics involved?

raising A8o for me in that position is standard... I think for quite a few players it is.

Also, how often do you really think your push in hand 2 is getting called by something as bad as A10 off? I think you got lucky that villain was a donk in that hand.

you're right, i was lucky that he had ATo because he is essentially drawing dead. The villain was pretty much an unknown but seemed passive and a little loose, but i still think a push is good. I thought the hand was relevant to this discussion.

I definitely agree with this, the texture on both boards is completely different.

yeah you're probably right. i think the A8 hand is definitely standard... but the board being paint on the first hand just completely changes an unknowns range. I think it's also standard to push on a J87 flop, two tone, facing a minraise from a halfstack with QJ. Whats a little more hazy is KQx two tone with K9 or other boards like that, this is probably more interesting to discuss.

[gabe]

does his stack size come into play here, because that is the only reason i can see you or any decent player even considering stacking off with k7 in this spot. Like fuck it its only 50bb if im wrong.

and isf, i really dont think your going to see a minraise with a worse king 35% of the time with this board. Am i wrong?

most of the time versus this type of player i see Kx from this raise.

no you dont, QT maybe but you dont see K9 k8 k7 k6 k5 k4 k3 k2

[griffey24]

I think it's also standard to push on a J87 flop, two tone, facing a minraise from a halfstack with QJ. Whats a little more hazy is KQx two tone with K9 or other boards like that, this is probably more interesting to discuss.

Why is it worse to push on a KQ board? Just because you think its more likely that villain has a K.. than a J? or because its more likely that villain won't believe that YOU have a J, and raise you, than if the flop had a K?

[IowaSkinsFan]

does his stack size come into play here, because that is the only reason i can see you or any decent player even considering stacking off with k7 in this spot. Like fuck it its only 50bb if im wrong.

and isf, i really dont think your going to see a minraise with a worse king 35% of the time with this board. Am i wrong?

most of the time versus this type of player i see Kx from this raise.

no you dont, QT maybe but you dont see K9 k8 k7 k6 k5 k4 k3 k2

I play 40k hands a month at these stakes, i dont want to be delusional about it, from the fishy guys i see a lot of tpwk on these boards. This is my experience. Clearly the sample size is not nearly big enough so if you really feel strongly about it i must be getting read variance but that's what I see.

You seem to think stacking off here is retarded, I think I now agree I just need to hear you say it clearly.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I play 40k hands a month at these stakes, i dont want to be delusional about it, from the fishy guys i see a lot of tpwk on these boards. This is my experience. Clearly the sample size is not nearly big enough so if you really feel strongly about it i must be getting read variance but that's what I see.

I completely agree.

[sauce123]

Imo the difference between the two examples you posted is board texture.
A shorties min-raise on a low board (one likely to have missed the preflop raiser) is more often a bluff.
A shorties min-raise on a board likely to have hit the pre-flop raiser
such as JQK board is like a 'value bet' for them.
(They want to get more money in the pot or induce a shove but can't 3 bet properly because they would be devestated if you folded.)

(Though a shorties flop lead into the pfr is still generally a sign of weakness/mediocre hand regardless of texture.)

ISF, Massimo- board texture is soooo important and i think the hand max posted where he has TPTK and the K7 hand are not even close to similar spots.

I think both of you guys do some things soooo much better than most players at your level and a fair amount of other things significantly worse. What makes this more difficult is that you both tend to mirror each other's leaks at times because you think about poker so similarly and bounce ur ideas off of each other. Pushing that flop with K7s is very bad against typical opponents.

[SmackinYaUp]

Yea think about the hand ranges. Its all about hand ranges. Their hand range and the board does not paint a very pretty picture.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Imo the difference between the two examples you posted is board texture.
A shorties min-raise on a low board (one likely to have missed the preflop raiser) is more often a bluff.
A shorties min-raise on a board likely to have hit the pre-flop raiser
such as JQK board is like a 'value bet' for them.
(They want to get more money in the pot or induce a shove but can't 3 bet properly because they would be devestated if you folded.)

(Though a shorties flop lead into the pfr is still generally a sign of weakness/mediocre hand regardless of texture.)

ISF, Massimo- board texture is soooo important and i think the hand max posted where he has TPTK and the K7 hand are not even close to similar spots.

I think both of you guys do some things soooo much better than most players at your level and a fair amount of other things significantly worse. What makes this more difficult is that you both tend to mirror each other's leaks at times because you think about poker so similarly and bounce ur ideas off of each other. Pushing that flop with K7s is very bad against typical opponents.

This post makes me think you're too good at poker.
You're completely right, however in this spot, seriously, the most common hand I run into is tpwk, and i think it was just read variance.

[The Odds God]

Imo the difference between the two examples you posted is board texture.
A shorties min-raise on a low board (one likely to have missed the preflop raiser) is more often a bluff.
A shorties min-raise on a board likely to have hit the pre-flop raiser
such as JQK board is like a 'value bet' for them.
(They want to get more money in the pot or induce a shove but can't 3 bet properly because they would be devestated if you folded.)

(Though a shorties flop lead into the pfr is still generally a sign of weakness/mediocre hand regardless of texture.)

No one could explain it better. This is so true. You explained this so well you could be a coach.

[crazycrazy]

about the K7 hand:
unless u had reason to do it cos of particular situation on table, u seriously cant beat any hand on that board, u have nothing. about his minraise maybe he thought u'll percieve it like defense against c-bet which dont make sense on that board (but he may want it to appear like that) most likely he just wanted u to commit ur chips on the flop in case u were c-beting 99- there (but rly on jqk board u are bound to have something). i dont play ur limit so i dont know if u play Kx crap kicker hands or no but u had nothing on the flop unless he was some kind of over agressive short stack making his stand with Q or something after u bullied him around all game but even then he had to have u beat if he's the shortie waiting for his spot.

[gabe]

I play 40k hands a month at these stakes, i dont want to be delusional about it, from the fishy guys i see a lot of tpwk on these boards. This is my experience. Clearly the sample size is not nearly big enough so if you really feel strongly about it i must be getting read variance but that's what I see.

I completely agree.

you both are crazy, on a KQJ two tone board you do not see Kx here the most

and remember 'x' signifies a blank, which means not AK KQ KJ KT

[IowaSkinsFan]

I play 40k hands a month at these stakes, i dont want to be delusional about it, from the fishy guys i see a lot of tpwk on these boards. This is my experience. Clearly the sample size is not nearly big enough so if you really feel strongly about it i must be getting read variance but that's what I see.

I completely agree.

you both are crazy, on a KQJ two tone board you do not see Kx here the most

and remember 'x' signifies a blank, which means not AK KQ KJ KT

Yeah I must be delusional, and I'm not being sarcastic lol.

[mcatdog]

PokerStars Game #10827558418: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
2007/07/08 - 05:56:54 (ET)
Table 'Silesia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: montenrgroo ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 2: AciDs ($119.10 in chips)
Seat 4: DamMongolian ($214.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Schakal23i ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 6: mcatdog ($192.85 in chips)
mcatdog: posts small blind $0.50
montenrgroo: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Ad Tc]
AciDs: folds
DamMongolian: folds
Schakal23i: folds
mcatdog: raises $3 to $4
montenrgroo: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kc Qs]
mcatdog: bets $5
montenrgroo: raises $5 to $10
mcatdog: raises $62 to $72
montenrgroo: calls $25.25 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jc Kc Qs] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kc Qs Js] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mcatdog: shows [Ad Tc] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
montenrgroo: mucks hand
mcatdog collected $76.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $78.50 | Rake $2
Board [Jc Kc Qs Js As]
Seat 1: montenrgroo (big blind) mucked [Ks 9h]
Seat 2: AciDs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DamMongolian folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Schakal23i (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: mcatdog (small blind) showed [Ad Tc] and won ($76.50) with a
straight, Ten to Ace

[IowaSkinsFan]

ZING!

[Numbr2intheWorld]

that;s not quite Kx

[pgil]

except that the last hand posted was a blind war vs. a 40BB stack who had a weak gutshot draw. I think the problem with the push in the OP is that the shorty will not fold his K, meaning you either lose or split, very few wins.

even if opp has something like AJh, you are losing more than you win, and he's not folding that either.

His min raise makes a lot of sense given that he has the one hand, and has the redraw to the nut flush, so he's not really afraid of any of the obvious draws.

[gabe]

PokerStars Game #10827558418: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
2007/07/08 - 05:56:54 (ET)
Table 'Silesia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: montenrgroo ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 2: AciDs ($119.10 in chips)
Seat 4: DamMongolian ($214.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Schakal23i ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 6: mcatdog ($192.85 in chips)
mcatdog: posts small blind $0.50
montenrgroo: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Ad Tc]
AciDs: folds
DamMongolian: folds
Schakal23i: folds
mcatdog: raises $3 to $4
montenrgroo: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kc Qs]
mcatdog: bets $5
montenrgroo: raises $5 to $10
mcatdog: raises $62 to $72
montenrgroo: calls $25.25 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jc Kc Qs] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kc Qs Js] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mcatdog: shows [Ad Tc] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
montenrgroo: mucks hand
mcatdog collected $76.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $78.50 | Rake $2
Board [Jc Kc Qs Js As]
Seat 1: montenrgroo (big blind) mucked [Ks 9h]
Seat 2: AciDs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DamMongolian folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Schakal23i (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: mcatdog (small blind) showed [Ad Tc] and won ($76.50) with a
straight, Ten to Ace

ZING!

why do i even try

back to the commune for me

[Ace isTrumps]

K7s is trash unless limping from SB personally.

Reraise flop so what do you hope to beat?

You are already owned or he has more then likely has str8/flush draw ...

Sorry but thats a definate fold given his shortstack.

[mcatdog]

Gabe,

Aw man, I just thought it'd be funny to post that HH in this thread. I can delete the post if it will bring about more gabe strategy posts!

[IowaSkinsFan]

PokerStars Game #10827558418: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
2007/07/08 - 05:56:54 (ET)
Table 'Silesia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: montenrgroo ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 2: AciDs ($119.10 in chips)
Seat 4: DamMongolian ($214.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Schakal23i ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 6: mcatdog ($192.85 in chips)
mcatdog: posts small blind $0.50
montenrgroo: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Ad Tc]
AciDs: folds
DamMongolian: folds
Schakal23i: folds
mcatdog: raises $3 to $4
montenrgroo: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kc Qs]
mcatdog: bets $5
montenrgroo: raises $5 to $10
mcatdog: raises $62 to $72
montenrgroo: calls $25.25 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jc Kc Qs] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kc Qs Js] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mcatdog: shows [Ad Tc] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
montenrgroo: mucks hand
mcatdog collected $76.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $78.50 | Rake $2
Board [Jc Kc Qs Js As]
Seat 1: montenrgroo (big blind) mucked [Ks 9h]
Seat 2: AciDs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DamMongolian folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Schakal23i (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: mcatdog (small blind) showed [Ad Tc] and won ($76.50) with a
straight, Ten to Ace

ZING!

why do i even try

back to the commune for me

wow wtf in a bad mood today? I was joking as well.

[Galapogos]

Since this thread is beginning to fall apart anyway. I would just like to point out how funny it is that it's a thread titled "I'm starting to think that this isn't standard..." and inside is a HH of stacking off with K7 on a JKQ flop.

I understand what you were trying to get at Massimo but it's still kinda funny if you look at it like that.