Iffy 88 spot

[drmcboy]

100 15k gtd on stars, about 75 left, ave stack 12k, I am top 5ish. 45 pay so no money issues.

Just moved to table, this is my first hand.



PokerStars Game #11040047749: Tournament #55429444, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/20 - 15:00:41 (ET)
Table '55429444 36' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Jeff1624 (8220 in chips)
Seat 2: Fisheye25 (11275 in chips)
Seat 3: pilotpete617 (2690 in chips)
Seat 4: patrick19 (5550 in chips)
Seat 5: hektor61 (15075 in chips)
Seat 6: doctorg321 (8200 in chips)
Seat 7: kiki_1968 (15175 in chips)
Seat 8: cuthbertt (33845 in chips)
Seat 9: uclabruinz (6665 in chips)
Jeff1624: posts the ante 25
Fisheye25: posts the ante 25
pilotpete617: posts the ante 25
patrick19: posts the ante 25
hektor61: posts the ante 25
doctorg321: posts the ante 25
kiki_1968: posts the ante 25
cuthbertt: posts the ante 25
uclabruinz: posts the ante 25
pilotpete617: posts small blind 200
patrick19: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [8s 8h]
hektor61: folds
doctorg321: raises 1200 to 1600
kiki_1968: folds
cuthbertt

[chardrian]

it's not even 5% of your stack and the raise is big enough and your opps stacks are shallow enough that it is unlikely that everyone will jump on the call train (and even if they did that's not so bad). I just smooth call and re-evaluate.

A checked flop would make me more wary than if doc leads out.

[mcatdog]

instafold, no one makes a 4x raise from early position with a hand that 88 dominates

[Al Golagnic]

Is calling really ok?

The opp only has 8k left, aren't we not getting the right potential payoff for hitting our set? I would think it is either fold or raise enough to isolate and commit the original raiser to playing for his stack in this hand. Although I don't really like the raise to that high of an amount with so many left to act, so I fold.

[chardrian]

instafold, no one makes a 4x raise from early position with a hand that 88 dominates

what range do u put him on?

88 is gonna beat two overs on a flop about 2/3 of the time and we will then take his 8k. Bad flop and we can just fold and no harm.

Is it just me or has the online game, especially at stars, evolved to a point where post-flop play hardly matters anymore since the only thing people will do is push or fold?

[Al Golagnic]

Is it just me or has the online game, especially at stars, evolved to a point where post-flop play hardly matters anymore since the only thing people will do is push or fold?

I couldn't tell you as I am unfortunately still in limbo with epassporte a full week after the funds left my checking account, but that is another story.

I think that I generally like to see more flops than your average player, in the case of this particular hand though, with the stack of the opponent, I would be too afraid of most flops, even if there was a 2/3 chance he didn't hit with overs. If it's a Q-9-4 flop, do you consider that an ok flop to call his post flop shove because only one of the typical overs to be raised with is present? What's your rule? If one of A or K shows, fold, he is likely to have one of those? But a Q shows and you can call? Maybe 2/3 of flops miss him, but 2/3 of flops don't look like they definitely did. Sure, this uncertainty in where I am after a flop holding a middle pair is a weakness in my game, but I don't think many people can make a decision with those cards very easily.

[drmcboy]

The opp only has 8k left, aren't we not getting the right potential payoff for hitting our set? I would think it is either fold or raise enough to isolate and commit the original raiser to playing for his stack in this hand. Although I don't really like the raise to that high of an amount with so many left to act, so I fold.

I folded, this was more or less my thinking as well.

But, I can see calling because of his stack size - I think he is a lot less likely than normal to c-bet, so if he leads at a flop I can feel pretty good that he has it.

But, you could really say that if I had ATC since I'm usually only flipping my hand over if I'm way behind.

[chardrian]

Yeah - I don't mind a fold here. But to call it an insta-fold to me means you are not taking enough time with all your decisions.

Yes his raise is well over 10% of his stack so we aren't getting ideal set mining call conditions. But then again, he has an awkward stack where he can take this shot and still fold and we can prey on that.

It's true we can prey on that with any two, but we have better than any two here which makes it less risky.

I really don't like a reraise here because then you are committing yourself against him and you may find yourself in just an ugly ugly situation. This is a weird situation where to me, the best options are fold or call.

[mcatdog]

what range do u put him on?

88 is gonna beat two overs on a flop about 2/3 of the time and we will then take his 8k. Bad flop and we can just fold and no harm.

I put him on 99-QQ, AK, AQ. 4x raises from early position are one of these hands the vast majority of the time. Your comment about two overs makes it seem like your range is "I put him on AK," why do you think an overpair is so unlikely here?

Is it just me or has the online game, especially at stars, evolved to a point where post-flop play hardly matters anymore since the only thing people will do is push or fold?

Well I mean yeah, that's because people are better and more aggressive than they used to be and they no longer call raises with shallow stacks and the intention of folding most flops. I'd call here with TT or JJ and I also think this is a great spot to just call with a big pair and hope someone comes over the top, so I wouldn't say I'm afraid to see flops, but I don't see flops vs. short stacks with hands that are a big dog vs. his likely range.

[chardrian]

what range do u put him on?

88 is gonna beat two overs on a flop about 2/3 of the time and we will then take his 8k. Bad flop and we can just fold and no harm.

I put him on 99-QQ, AK, AQ. 4x raises from early position are one of these hands the vast majority of the time. Your comment about two overs makes it seem like your range is "I put him on AK," why do you think an overpair is so unlikely here?

Is it just me or has the online game, especially at stars, evolved to a point where post-flop play hardly matters anymore since the only thing people will do is push or fold?

Well I mean yeah, that's because people are better and more aggressive than they used to be and they no longer call raises with shallow stacks and the intention of folding most flops. I'd call here with TT or JJ and I also think this is a great spot to just call with a big pair and hope someone comes over the top, so I wouldn't say I'm afraid to see flops, but I don't see flops vs. short stacks with hands that are a big dog vs. his likely range.

meh - the fold is fine... But you also might be missing opps to take some chips. I think a lot of this is personal playing style. I happen to be looser than lots on ftr.

[elipsesjeff]

This is a tough spot, and I play it both ways. I would probably just fold here as playing postflop is nothing more than a guessing game with your hand. I'd much rather cold call with AJ than 88 though.