Best way to get money in the pot with AA ($27)

[taipan168]

What do you think is the best way to get all my chips in the pot, flat call or shove over? CO's stats are 16/9.

Poker Stars No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200 (Ante: t25)
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1455
UTG+1: t2350
CO: t1790
Hero: t1980
SB: t3635
BB: t2290

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with A A
2 folds, CO raises to t400, Hero ????

[I H8 Mondayz]

I shove here, with 2 bigger stacks left to speak I don't want to risk them smooth calling either. I'm always tempted to smooth call and slow play AA, but if your not acting last against 1 player ur making a huge gamble and probably ur stack!

[CowbellGuy]

I would push all in. If Villian has >10BB, and is minraising here (horrible play by him), if he is a half-decent player, which I guess he isnt... he has to call. And with a couple of others to act who knows maybe someone else will join in. If villian hadn't minraised, I think limping might be ideal here, but I would go all in preflop

[bjsaust]

Hero makes it 1000 to go.

[WildBobAA]

minraise LOL

[Zee Devee]

Hero makes it 1000 to go.

I disagree. If Hero makes it 1000 to go, then he is putting in 1/2 his chips in preflop. Anyone who has been watching tai play aggressive would know something is up, and even the people who haven't seen him would sense something fishy, because why would he raise only to 1000, which is begging to be called by the first raiser? The only answer is a.) he has a monster, or b.) he is a donk. Any reasonable person can tell he isn't a donk (although I think this raise would be rather donkish if tai assumes the others know this).

A push seems more likely to be called than a raise to 1000 because it just looks so fishy.

[Jack Sawyer]

minraise LOL

minraise the minraiser LOL

[Trikflow77]

flat call

[TLR]

flat call

I would not flat call, you will find yourself in 3-4 way pot which is not great

I would reraise to 1000 and hope for one caller

[Fnord]

Call, AA and maybe KK are the only hands strong enough that we WANT to play a pot 3 or even 4 handed. There isn't enough chips behind to punish our slow play and it will commit a lot of worse hands on the flop. Also, with a weak raise + call it will scream SQUEEZE ME to an aware aggro player in the blinds.

Repeat after me: IT'S OK TO SLOW PLAY ACES PRE-FLOP WITH SHALLOW MONEY

I only see 2 cases for shoving here.
o Survival being worth more than Chip EV
o Balancing our range against aware players

[TLR]

Fnord wrote

Call, AA and maybe KK are the only hands strong enough that we WANT to play a pot 3 or even 4 handed. There isn't enough chips behind to punish our slow play and it will commit a lot of worse hands on the flop. Also, with a weak raise + call it will scream SQUEEZE ME to an aware aggro player in the blinds.

Hate to disagree here, but playing AA 4 handed is too risky in this spot, I rather win a smaller pot here, even the 850 already in the pot are a nice addition to hero's stack.

I don't see the squeeze play run often enough to assume someone will actualy do it.

[Fnord]

I don't see the squeeze play run often enough to assume someone will actualy do it.

Fair enough, but it will widen shove ranges quite a bit. I think hands like 88, KQ and ATs might shove where-as otherwise they would fold to a push.

I still stand by AA and KK as the best multi-way hold'em hands. From a chip EV perspective calling is by far the best play unless your opponents are regulars who read hands well enough that you need to shove here.

[TLR]

Fnord Wrote:

Fair enough, but it will widen shove ranges quite a bit. I think hands like 88, KQ and ATs might shove where-as otherwise they would fold to a push.

Pretty hard to tell without reads, in a vacuum I agree that 88/KQ would probably fold here to a reraise, but I am not sure they are pushing rather then calling preflop here, espceially if they paid attention to how Tai played or if the CO is tight.

I still stand by AA and KK as the best multi-way hold'em hands

They are also the best hands to have heads up, and they tend to lose value as more people get in the pot, since you assume you win them with overpair value.

From a chip EV perspective calling is by far the best play

Maybe, but survival is as critical as chip EV in an Sng

[Fnord]

They are also the best hands to have heads up, and they tend to lose value as more people get in the pot, since you assume you win them with overpair value.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Ask any Full Ring LHE expert. This is only true if the money is deep. AA is the best multi-way hand, not AKs nor JTs.

[TLR]

TLR wrote:
They are also the best hands to have heads up, and they tend to lose value as more people get in the pot, since you assume you win them with overpair value.


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Ask any Full Ring LHE expert. This is only true if the money is deep. AA is the best multi-way hand, not AKs nor JTs.

Not arguing that it is the best multiway hand, just stating it is also the best heads up hand.

I am a pretty bad LHE ring player, so I cannot comment on it, but this hand is from a NL Sng, not a limit ring game, so the factors are a bit different

[Fnord]

the factors are a bit different

You're in even better shape since the money is going in on the flop (5 card hands) instead of having to play turns and rivers (best 5 of 6/7 card hands.) Assuming that playing possum doesn't get someone to shove a hand we crush from the blinds.

As for the survial aspect, 6 handed with huge blinds it seems like there is merit in trying to take up a very small risk to knock out a player and take over the chip lead as we approach bubble time.

[Fnord]

Winning in Tough Hold'em Games

Defending from the Small Blind
"it is almost always good to force out the big blind, creating dead money in the pot. In fact the only optimal hands to cold call here are Aces and Kings".

As I said before, LHE is less favorable to a cold call than 12ish bb NLHE because you may tend to lose some value on your big pair on the turn or river where you will often have to pay-off when sucked out on.

[TLR]

If you cold call and lets say everyone limps in the pot is
4x400+150 = 1750
Even if you are ahead on the flop and you push it you may not get any action, since people will be relucant to call with hands like TPWK or 2nd pair, so in a very likely scenario you will win 1350 chips.
however if you push preflop and get one caller, lets say the CO you will win 1790+750 = 2540 chips

[Fnord]

How often the CO calls a shove or c-bets (shoves?) a flop is worth some consideration. If he's a muppet that is going to call a shove quite often, then it's a pretty easy shove.

The joy of the button here is that we give everyone a chance to bet into us yet the flop never gets checked through. Also, a button bet won't get a whole lot of respect.

[TLR]

How often the CO calls a shove or c-bets (shoves?) a flop is worth some consideration. If he's a muppet that is going to call a shove quite often, then it's a pretty easy shove.

All too often a minraise is a very strong hand that is afraid to scare everyone off.

BTW if the CO raise was 3BB instead of minraise I would be much more inclined to cold call it

[Fnord]

All too often a minraise is a very strong hand that is afraid to scare everyone off.

Player dependent. It could also be someone who thinks they play good post-flop poker trying to salavage some post-flop play out of this blind structure. It also could be someone trying to get the best of a table playing very tight by min-raising a lot of hands. A quick look though PokerTracker to see if his raise size is out of line would clairify things.

[Trikflow77]

i still say flat call, i think it might be a 3 handed pot, but your going to get your money in good at least 75% of the time 3 handed on the flop. I make this play all the time and it is the best way to try and build a stack in this situation. period.

[Jack Sawyer]

Repeat after me: IT'S OK TO SLOW PLAY ACES PRE-FLOP WITH SHALLOW MONEY

IT'S OK TO SLOW PLAY ACES PRE-FLOP WITH SHALLOW MONEY

[Fnord]

*bump* because taipan168 never checked back in.

[taipan168]

Good discussion, thanks for the replies everybody. I wonder whether raising to 800 would give such invitingly good odds to the minraiser that he won't be able to fold, whilst at the same time perhaps allowing enough room for the blinds to squeeze if that's what they feel like doing.

[badgers]

Good discussion, thanks for the replies everybody. I wonder whether raising to 800 would give such invitingly good odds to the minraiser that he won't be able to fold, whilst at the same time perhaps allowing enough room for the blinds to squeeze if that's what they feel like doing.

The blinds would have to be completely insane to 4bet light here imo. I should be obvious they have little/no FE.

[topsoyale]

Just read all this and what initially looked like a simple hand is indeed quite interesting.

If this came up for me, I almost always push over.
I don't think a clever bet size does and benefit.

If he's min raising just to steal raising or pushing makes him fold, with pushing having the benefit of removing players behind.

If he's min raising to get action with a big hand he calls the push or the raise, but the push gets the money in quicker and again players behind are out.