Comments on July 2007 SNG experiment

[taipan168]

Post comments on the July 2007 SNG experiment here.

[mcatdog]

-I think hands 6, 11, 12, 14, 22, and 24 were interesting. I tried to post detailed analysis of my play in the ones of those that I was involved in. Would be interested in feedback on my play in those hands, as well as comments on the other ones of them.

-Calling a 5x raise with a small pair OOP like taipan did in Hand 6 is not even chip +EV against a decent player let alone +$EV, as shown by this hand where he would've only picked off a c-bet if hit a set, he's not going to double up that often here.

-I thought it was interesting how I showed one bluff and made one thin value raise and a number of other players pegged me as overly loose for the entire rest of the SnG, even though I played tight as a drum with the exception of those two hands. There were a couple of times where someone said "I'm sure mcat has crap here" and I had AK both times. This goes to prove a point that aba20 made in a Cardrunners video: If you make a "wild" play near the beginning of a session, the other players at the table will peg you as a loose cannon and it will take a long time for that impression to change. He says you can make a lot of money by advertising a big bluff early on and then tightening up when everyone thinks you're loose and they play back at you too much. This goes more for cash games than SnG's but I think it holds true to some extent in SnG's too. aba20 is probably the most successful online poker player for those of you who don't know who he is.

-Ben (bjsaust) is an awesome guy for setting this up and putting together the hand histories. You play way too tight though. That hand where you had A8o facing a button range from a short stack, you knew he was raising loose and you should have gone with your read and put him all in especially since you had a decent hand. Don't worry so much about looking stupid just in case he wakes up with a real hand.

I'll probably have more comments later this was good fun though and I hope it happens again sometime!

[taipan168]

I'll add my comments later, but...

Ben (bjsaust) is an awesome guy for setting this up and putting together the hand histories.

...QFT. Thanks a lot bjs, that was terrific of you to arrange this and plough through the HHs (having done it once before I know how painful it is!).

[bjsaust]

-Ben (bjsaust) is an awesome guy for setting this up and putting together the hand histories. You play way too tight though. That hand where you had A8o facing a button range from a short stack, you knew he was raising loose and you should have gone with your read and put him all in especially since you had a decent hand. Don't worry so much about looking stupid just in case he wakes up with a real hand.

Interesting you made this comment, I was just finishing a game off then planning to comment on that hand myself. Thats the biggest change in my play since then (it still amazes me sometimes how much my game changes even after 2 months of playing SnGs and all the feedback I've had). This would be an insta-shove back now for me. In fact I probably go overboard with it, I've shoved over with as low as A4o if I've had a read its weak.

Oooh, that reminds me, I also wanted to thank you again for your hint on raise sizes. Not only is it great HU, but it works a treat for identifying resteal opportunities. Its come in really handy.

[mcatdog]

One more thing I wanted to say but I forgot - taipan plays really well. I'm embarrassed to admit that before I came back to SnG satellites a couple months ago and started posting in this forum again, I thought taipan was just another SnG nit, but I was way off there. He's a smart guy and he has a really good mathematical understanding of the game. If he wanted to he could be making a ton of money but he's a busy guy with a cool job and that's much more important than poker anyway.

[taipan168]

One more thing I wanted to say but I forgot - taipan plays really well. I'm embarrassed to admit that before I came back to SnG satellites a couple months ago and started posting in this forum again, I thought taipan was just another SnG nit, but I was way off there. He's a smart guy and he has a really good mathematical understanding of the game. If he wanted to he could be making a ton of money but he's a busy guy with a cool job and that's much more important than poker anyway.

Thanks mcat, you're far too kind! It's great to have you back playing tourneys and posting in this forum, your advice is always very valuable, you've really helped me improve my game (and I'm sure that a lot of other posters would say the same).

[Da GOAT]

my ending shove was based on opp been uber tight and not wanting to make a show of themselves in front of others lol

I still think his call is bad/borderline tho, he mentions it as an insta-call which worries me. maybe im wrong and bitter

[Da GOAT]

BTW Tai i knew you had a PP in hand 6. I beleived you wouldnt play any other holding differently.

also im surprised tristan didnt call me IP w/99

[Da GOAT]

lol impsting as i read it,

Tai hand 11-how do I come into the equation. are you not worried about ANosmic more??

BTW ID love for us to get a cash game together

[bjsaust]

Interesting, with your stack you're pushing wider than usual, although it was kind of early position. That said I needed chips and that was a fairly good chance to win a few hundred and still be in the game if I lose.

Maybe I overvalue medium pairs though. Interested in others thoughts...

[Da GOAT]

BTW i dont mean vs you bjaust, i consider myself totally out of the game then and your call was got. the hand before that when tristan called

[bjsaust]

Ahh ok then.

I think given you're raising from position tristan can put you on a large range, most of which AT fares well against.

[Da GOAT]

im asking is it +EV tho for him. he couldnt know exactly what i shove coz i dont post all that much in here anymore

[taipan168]

Tai hand 11-how do I come into the equation. are you not worried about ANosmic more??

In case you woke up with a hand then I've spewed like 1/3 of my stack. I'm not worried about Anosmic unless he's pulling the limp/RR trick but yeah, I guess you have a point.

BTW ID love for us to get a cash game together

I wouldn't!

[Da GOAT]

If we got one together it would be awesome. only need to put in active players hole cards. it would be all about the comments and it sure would be a tight ass affair lol. 10NL or i dunno is there a 5NL?

[taipan168]

16. bjsaust - I would have raised Andy here with Q7o folded to in the SB, make it 150 to go.

18. badgers - I would have either limped or raised mcat SB vs BB to see how he reacts.

22. Anosmic - I think you should have shoved preflop against the LP raise by mcat and my cold call. Most of the time you either get all folds or end up flipping with overlay. In this case you would have gone broke but if the flop came A high you would have gone broke against mcatdog anyway.

23. Jack Sawyer - With A7s this is pure spew. Open fold to an UTG raise by a FTR player and DEFINITELY fold to the re-raise from a LP fish. Bjsaust - I open fold KQo on a full table from UTG even when at least 6 out of 8 opps still to act are tight.

24. Anosmic - this isn't a good raise with 16x BB with the LP fish in the BB. Bjsaust, this is an easy shove over with A8o to a button steal.

39. GOAT - very surprised you didn't reshove with AJo since you have the three remaining players to act covered.

46. GOAT - I guess with two FTRers in the blinds they call tight enough to make this +EV. Would need to run it through SNGPT though.

51. andyh26 - I guess on this tight table the raise from EP with 22 is OK.

52. GOAT - guess with two FTRers in the blinds the shove is OK, just like 46. On a normal $6.50 this would be way too loose with 8x BB.

56-57, 59. Andyh goes aggro with the big stack. Nice play here!

61. bjsaust - I think he can afford to fold this with 9x BB against the big stack on the bubble.

63. bjsaust - shove is very dependent upon calling ranges. I suspect that andyh calls you pretty wide with the big stack which makes it marginal at best.

69. This is interesting, I would definitely have shoved this but when bjs and I were discussing it and running through SNGPT it looks like a fold because the big stack calls wide from the BB.

73. Jack Sawyer - I probably would have shoved Q7o in this spot. You have under 7x BB and the blinds come around pretty fast 3-handed.

79. taipan168 - think I can afford to make this call given how short stacked Avi is, particularly since I have the big stack.

98. Jack Sawyer - against an aggressive player like andyh I never ever complete with blinds this big, unless I'm trapping with a monster. Shove or fold only.

[rubixstreub]

[quote="bjsaust"]

Oooh, that reminds me, I also wanted to thank you again for your hint on raise sizes. Not only is it great HU, but it works a treat for identifying resteal opportunities. Its come in really handy.

oooh, please share this hint.

[badgers]

[quote="rubixstreub"]

Oooh, that reminds me, I also wanted to thank you again for your hint on raise sizes. Not only is it great HU, but it works a treat for identifying resteal opportunities. Its come in really handy.

oooh, please share this hint.

"Mcatdog's rule" states that when a donk raises a bigger than standard amount preflop, he aint folding.

I'm amazed at anosmic's holding in hand 9. Are we really that nitty that it could be +EV?

Thanks for organising bjsaust

[badgers]

-I thought it was interesting how I showed one bluff and made one thin value raise and a number of other players pegged me as overly loose for the entire rest of the SnG, even though I played tight as a drum with the exception of those two hands. There were a couple of times where someone said "I'm sure mcat has crap here" and I had AK both times. This goes to prove a point that aba20 made in a Cardrunners video: If you make a "wild" play near the beginning of a session, the other players at the table will peg you as a loose cannon and it will take a long time for that impression to change. He says you can make a lot of money by advertising a big bluff early on and then tightening up when everyone thinks you're loose and they play back at you too much. This goes more for cash games than SnG's but I think it holds true to some extent in SnG's too. aba20 is probably the most successful online poker player for those of you who don't know who he is.

This makes me feel even more donkish! I don't know if it was me that said it, but for some reason after you showed 74o I thought you were taking advantage of our nittyness and were raising wide. Obv you wouldn't have shown if this was the case. Should have known this, lesson learnt.

[bjsaust]

Basically that people at these levels tend to tell you their plans with their PF raise sizes. Generally speaking a 3xBB raise means they'll fold to a push over, but a 4xBB raise means they'll go all the way with it and call any reraises.

Once you've got that general rule though, you can spot other spots. For instance I had one guy min-raising me occassionally from EP when I was BB. He took my blinds twice because a min-raise can mean a monster, but then I saw him 3xBB raise and showdown KK. The next two times he min-raised me I pushed over and he folded both times. He was min-raising weak hands and std raising his monsters.

[Jack Sawyer]

23 - I guess I somehow knew if I raised there, I'd get bjs off the hand. But then I saw the shortsacked fish next to act, and I kinda ran off track, knowing he'd be pushing pretty much atc to try and get back in the game.
very bad call (2x), indeed.

73 - Maybe, but if somebody wakes up w/ a K or an A, I'm done.

89 - your comment in the HH is right-on, Tai

I shoulda added, my unexplainable call in 95, not 96

Again, sorry all for dropping the ball HU.



Tnx for making it happen, bjs.
GG FTR!

[Jack Sawyer]

also im surprised tristan didnt call me IP w/99

Yeah, one of two sets I missed in the first 12 hands.
I kinda forgot I was playing in a turbo.

98. Jack Sawyer - against an aggressive player like andyh I never ever complete with blinds this big, unless I'm trapping with a monster. Shove or fold only.

This is probably why my heads up sucks against more aggressive players. I'm working on it, m8.

[taipan168]

also im surprised tristan didnt call me IP w/99

Yeah, one of two sets I missed in the first 12 hands.
I kinda forgot I was playing in a turbo.

Oh yeah, forgot about this one (Hand 6). I would definitely call GOAT's raise with 99 when you have position on him.

Plus, it's got nothing to do with the fact it's a turbo (that old chestnut again ). I'd call here all day long in a normal too.

Calling a 5x raise with a small pair OOP like taipan did in Hand 6 is not even chip +EV against a decent player let alone +$EV, as shown by this hand where he would've only picked off a c-bet if hit a set, he's not going to double up that often here.

I tend to agree with you here, I guess at the level I play I am used to donks stacking off with A-whatever when I hit my set. Against GOAT it is probably unlikely that I'll have implied odds unless we both hit the flop really hard (eg. AK9, KK9 or whatever).

[Da GOAT]

yeah if flop came say Axx. even if it was very draw heavy or dry i MAY not stack off if you were to raise my c/b. Bcoz i dont think i could EVER include anything but PPs in your range in that instance. Your PF range is just so so narrow that i wouldnt ever pay it off.

[bjsaust]

Its interesting. Do you make that same decision with a random player, or because you read him as a solid player?

[badgers]

18. badgers - I would have either limped or raised mcat SB vs BB to see how he reacts.

Fair point, but tbh I just didn't want to play mcatdog postflop!

[bjsaust]

I still think his call is bad/borderline tho, he mentions it as an insta-call which worries me. maybe im wrong and bitter

Anymore comments on Jacks play here? GOAT maintains that since Jack didnt know how tight he'd be pushing it was a bad call. I'm borderline, I think even an unknown this isnt a terrible call with GOATs stack, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Hand 52:
...
Seat 4: CelticUabhar (1620 in chips)
Seat 5: Avi_Tristan (1275 in chips)
...
Avi_Tristan: posts small blind 100
BjsAust: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
...
Dealt to CelticUabhar [4c 9s]
Dealt to Avi_Tristan [Th As]
...
CelticUabhar: raises 1420 to 1620 and is all-in
Avi_Tristan: calls 1175 and is all-in

[Jack Sawyer]

I acted on a situational read I had on GOAT. It happened to have been correct.

What exactly the read was, I can't remember anymore.
I mention it as instapush because of the read. Not on the cards.

[taipan168]

I still think his call is bad/borderline tho, he mentions it as an insta-call which worries me. maybe im wrong and bitter

Anymore comments on Jacks play here? GOAT maintains that since Jack didnt know how tight he'd be pushing it was a bad call. I'm borderline, I think even an unknown this isnt a terrible call with GOATs stack, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Hand 52:
...
Seat 4: CelticUabhar (1620 in chips)
Seat 5: Avi_Tristan (1275 in chips)
...
Avi_Tristan: posts small blind 100
BjsAust: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
...
Dealt to CelticUabhar [4c 9s]
Dealt to Avi_Tristan [Th As]
...
CelticUabhar: raises 1420 to 1620 and is all-in
Avi_Tristan: calls 1175 and is all-in

I can't see the issue here, both GOAT and Jack's plays are totally standard. GOAT just got unlucky that Jack had a hand he could call with, and there's no way that Jack is going to fold ATo with 6x BB to a SB vs BB push.

[mcatdog]

It was a button push and he'd have to think da GOAT sucks pretty bad for him to consider folding AT to a button push with 6 BB.

[bjsaust]

BTW Tai i knew you had a PP in hand 6. I beleived you wouldnt play any other holding differently.

I think we all knew Tai had a PP in hand 6 here, I'm wondering how he should play differently to take advantage of this. Two things come to mind:

Raise Pre. This disguises it, means we could get paid big if we hit, and at least sets us up for a c-bet.

Check/Raise the flop. Since Taipan can probably guess that Da GOAT puts him on a PP, then perhaps representing the set even when he missed is +EV?

Obviously this only applies if you think the Opp is good enough to read you, but it would apply here, and probably apply as stakes get higher as well.

Thoughts?

[taipan168]

BTW Tai i knew you had a PP in hand 6. I beleived you wouldnt play any other holding differently.

I think we all knew Tai had a PP in hand 6 here, I'm wondering how he should play differently to take advantage of this. Two things come to mind:

Raise Pre. This disguises it, means we could get paid big if we hit, and at least sets us up for a c-bet.

Check/Raise the flop. Since Taipan can probably guess that Da GOAT puts him on a PP, then perhaps representing the set even when he missed is +EV?

Obviously this only applies if you think the Opp is good enough to read you, but it would apply here, and probably apply as stakes get higher as well.

Thoughts?

This is the hand:

PokerStars Game #10778165873: Tournament #54627590, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/07/05 - 07:39:31 (ET)
Table '54627590 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: badgers_uk (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: mcatdog (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: taipan168 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: CelticUabhar (1410 in chips)
Seat 5: Avi_Tristan (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: Anosmic (1420 in chips)
Seat 7: abonelli (1690 in chips)
Seat 8: BjsAust (1630 in chips)
Seat 9: andyh26 (1420 in chips)
abonelli: posts small blind 10
BjsAust: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andyh26 [3s 4c]
Dealt to taipan168 [5h 5d]
Dealt to mcatdog [Qh Js]
Dealt to CelticUabhar [Kd Ac]
Dealt to badgers_uk [As 6s]
Dealt to Avi_Tristan [9c 9d]
Dealt to Anosmic [2s Ts]
Dealt to BjsAust [7h Jd]
andyh26: folds
badgers_uk: folds
mcatdog: folds
taipan168: calls 20
lol"
CelticUabhar: raises 80 to 100
Avi_Tristan: folds
Anosmic: folds
abonelli: folds
BjsAust: folds
taipan168: calls 80
*** FLOP *** [4s 9s 2c]
taipan168: checks
CelticUabhar: bets 160
taipan168: folds
CelticUabhar collected 230 from pot

I thought about raising preflop and maybe I should have to disguise my hand but a) if I get re-raised I can't profitably call and b) not sure I want to build a big pot when I'm OOP postflop.

On the flop, I also thought about picking off GOAT's c-bet with a raise to about 400 or so but I thought that there was a real risk that he has 99+ here in which case he is shoving over and I've lost a lot of chips.

As mcatdog said, the problem here is that against a good cash game player like GOAT he will rarely stack off here even with an A or K on the flop since he would know that I had a pocket pair preflop. This decreases my implied odds of playing this, but I still think I have to call his raise.

[Da GOAT]

BTW looking back Jacks had an easy call given his stack size. Ba Humbug!!!

Tai could of done a couple of things to throw me off I guess. Granted you wouldnt have the implied odds for a set but that assumes he only proceeds postflop as long as he has a set. He doesnt need as many implied odds if he wants play on without the set.

If you hit your set you dont have to go for a Good Ole C/R. Leading any Axx, Kxx type boards would be very very tricky for me since he could also be leading a low PP (non-set) into me as a tester. My range is like 88+,AT+ so leading A/Kxx boards is tough for me to play against ie I will probably raise your lead anyway therefore you have gotten more money out of me than if you let me just c/b. In the long term both plays are probably equal vs me here. You get more money when you lead but it happens less often than you letting me c/b. The % of times ill repop is actually quite large bcoz i dont put you on a A or K so i know you dont have either THEREFORE for exampe if i had JJ id repop you and fold to a shove or shutdown.

LOL at my explanation

[Jack Sawyer]

When is the next one, BJ?

[KillThatInfidel]

How do you get in on these?

[Jack Sawyer]

How do you get in on these?

It will be announced by Bjsaust. He was the mastermind behind the last one.

[badgers]

When is the next one, BJ?

[bjsaust]

Lol.

Next one will be US times, private tourney, which means it will be std blinds not turbo.

I'm interested, but works killing me atm. I'll make a post once I sort some stuff out.

[GatorJH]

Lol.

Next one will be US times, private tourney, which means it will be std blinds not turbo.

I'm interested, but works killing me atm. I'll make a post once I sort some stuff out.

Go ahead and count me in.

[KillThatInfidel]

Which site?

[GatorJH]

Which site?

In the past they have been held on Pokerstars.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, pokerstars.

[Jack Sawyer]

BJ FOR PREZ!!!

[badgers]

Go ahead and count me in.

+1

BJ FOR PREZ!!!

QFT! Although don't they have Prime Ministers in Aus?