5.50 2 table , short handed, line check

[jdubs]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1930)
MP (t12250)
CO (t4035)
Button (t2220)
SB (t2610)
Hero (t3955)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 5.
1 fold, MP raises to t400, CO calls t400, 2 folds, Hero calls t200.

call minraise with 5:1 odds and shorthanded

Flop: (t1300) J, 2, J (3 players)
Hero bets t600, MP folds, CO calls t600.

orphan flop, I take a stab, get called

Turn: (t2500) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t2955 (All-In),

fired second bullet, reasoning if villain has A2 or a pair under 77 or overcards its very hard to call my push, if they have Jx, or a bigger pair, oh well.....

[taipan168]

Sorry to be harsh, but this looks like total and utter spew to me.

Preflop: Instafold. You have a rubbish hand and you're OOP. This is much more important to me than 5:1 preflop pot odds.

Flop: You have nada, no pair, no draw. Just check and see what happens. Leading is pretty bad here.

Turn: Opp has told you that he has something of a hand with his call of your flop lead and you still have nada on the turn. Even if he has A high he's beating you, so pushing the turn is total and utter spew. I'd check 110% of the time here and fold super quick to any bet.

[jdubs]

I have to disagree with just about every one of your points here..

1) 6 handed, and 5:1 odds. yes i'm out of position, but when a flop like this comes leading.....

2) very often takes this pot, which counters your 2nd point. yes I have nothing, but how often does this flop connect with either player left???
This "orphan flop" bet move has become a staple of my game, and it works!!

3) turn...pushing here is very difficult for villain to call, even after he calls my flop bet!... if he has J, then as I said "oh well" , I dont see him'her having a medium to big pair here, my most likely guess is A2 or a low pair maybe QK ... how do you call with any of that?

[taipan168]

I have to disagree with just about every one of your points here..

Good, let's have a discussion - and see what others think too.

1) 6 handed, and 5:1 odds. yes i'm out of position, but when a flop like this comes leading.....

2) very often takes this pot, which counters your 2nd point. yes I have nothing, but how often does this flop connect with either player left???
This "orphan flop" bet move has become a staple of my game, and it works!!

So you'd pull this move with 32 offsuit? Because the way you describe it, it pretty much doesn't matter what cards you have because you're pretty much relying on opp to fold here. Plus note that your chances of flopping two pair or better are about 5%, so you don't have implied odds to call here (since opps won't stack off every time you hit).

On the flop, it doesn't have to connect with either opps' hands. Hands like medium pocket pairs (say 55-TT) will very often call here since a) opps who flop trip Js will very often check rather than lead and b) the fact there are two Js dramatically reduces the chance that you do in fact have a J in your hand.

3) turn...pushing here is very difficult for villain to call, even after he calls my flop bet!... if he has J, then as I said "oh well" , I dont see him'her having a medium to big pair here, my most likely guess is A2 or a low pair maybe QK ... how do you call with any of that?

Considering that the flop is very dry, what do you think opp will call your flop bet with? He can't believe that the 7 would have helped you, so he is pretty much calling your turn overbet shove with anything that he'd call your flop bet with.

[CoccoBill]

Ok it's not like I'm qualified to comment but this is what I think.

I have to agree with taipan on all counts. I would fold this pf in an instant, I wouldn't try a move on the flop against 2 players with air, especially at low stakes where every other opp is a calling station. I leave these moves for desperate situations or when I'm the big stack by a wide margin. Actually no, I'd probably still not do them at $5, that's totally unnecessary.

[bjsaust]

Interesting hand.

I fold pre-flop for 2 reasons.

1 - I dont believe 5:1 odds are good enough to call off a further 5% of our stack v's two opponents OOP when we have 20xBB and after the CO has bet we have the 2nd biggest stack.

2 - A min-raise at these stakes is often a sign of strength. Perhaps MP1 is raising light with his monster stack, but the call from CO sets off alarm bells for me. Without any good reads I assume I'm up against at least 1 very strong hand.


Flop... I can see the reasoning. but we're now putting in 10% of our stack OOP. Whats our plan? We have nothing. From point 2 above, we're still worried about someone with A high who doesnt believe us, or more worryingly a decent PP (and always a chance of AJ, KJ, QJ, JT type hands, well within his range).

Turn, now we've managed to take a pair of total crap hole cards, and get all our chips (20BBs which meant we were comfortable) in the middle v's someone who has shown strength on both of the prior streets. This screams one of those hands where you wonder how the heck you got into this position.

If we're here and feel we must play this street, then I'd opt for a smaller bet. This push screams bluff. Make it 1000 and look like you want him to call or push over, unless your read is that he wouldnt pick up on something that subtle.



I had a hand like this in the Experiment. It isnt so much that the move is so terrible, but its just not neccessary. We're in a great position to take advantage of the bubble without taking risks like this.

[badgers]

I really really don't like it at all not a bit no no no. No where near enough of his flop range folds to you turn push, sure he may fold 55-TT but what about JJ+, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT even J9. None of these are folding, there are no draws on the board he has a made hand.

Also, it doesn't look like you planned your play very well if you are planning to two-barrell most turns. You would need to bet the flop slightly harder so the turn shove doesn't look like an overbet.

You don't need to get fancy to beat $5.50s and the players don't fold enough to make this at all profitable imo.

[Ghaleon]

I'll weigh in here....

Firing a continuation bet on what looks to be an orphan flop is something I do quite often as well. Though I don't often do it out of position and without at least one overcard.

However, I think I'm folding this pre-flop as well. Yes its 5 to 1 odds, but even if you hit a straight draw or second pair or something like that, you would be playing it out of position.

After the flop, when I don't hit, and I don't think the other guy did either, I'll fire on bet of about 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot and then abandon it if anyone plays back at me. Though, again, this move is more effective in position.

Given his call in the CO pre-flop you have to believe that anything he could possibly hold beats you at this point.

Finally, you are counting on this guys ability to interpret the entire hand, guess your range of holdings, and value his own hand appropriately. At the $5 games that is probably unlikely. There are plenty of people there that will call down to the river with AK, or a pair of 3's, or similar hand.

The only positive here is that if the guy folds to your shove, this is the perfect opportunity to show your hand and really scramble his brain.

[CoccoBill]

Firing a continuation bet on what looks to be an orphan flop is something I do quite often as well.

A cbet is when you bet on a missed flop after being the agressor preflop, which is not the case here. Actually a better move would have been to reraise pf, though I would never do that here either.

This hand is something I would expect Gus Hansen to do at the WSOP, but it has no place at small stakes SNGs IMO.

[taipan168]

The only positive here is that if the guy folds to your shove, this is the perfect opportunity to show your hand and really scramble his brain.

Personally I never show (except in FTR experiments of course). Why give opps free information (assuming they are paying attention)? Just let him think that you had him beat such that he might respect your next bluff.

[badgers]

Oh yeah I was also going to say that 5:1 would be fine to call preflop if we were deeper but we don't have the implied odds if we hit a monster with such shallow stacks.

[DetroitHusling101]

I agree with everyone else. I'd fold preflop. I'm at the lower stakes too and i've noticed that ABC poker is what works best here not elaborate bluffs. I mean obviously C-Bet if your preflop agressor or semi-bluffs , but no GUS HANSEN's at these levels. Just my 2 cents.

[Im_new]

Hey, my first response to a problem... .



I fold pre-flop as well....




That's all there is to it for me lol.

[jdubs]

great responses guys! Thank you thank you.....

Been thinking about this hand last couple of days and many of your points were conclusions I came to as well..

namely:

preflop call is indeed bad- if this is completing a blind, maybe, calling a minraise- there's no need.

I still like the bet on flop after I call the pf raise tho- this move works many many times in situations such as this, It is a powerful weapon- the betting at an orphan flop.

the turn push is not good.... as someone pointed out, it screams bluff- who is going to believe the 7 helped me? If I am to bet here, a smaller bet would hold more water, so to speak, than a push. But betting here in general is not a good idea- I agree. A low PP still probably calls, because, as you point out, the typical 5.50 opp is not going to recognize when he/she should fold. " Gus Hansen moves" like this are not going to work in a 5.50 SnG.

so the only thing I really liked in this hand was my flop bet.... but it has made for some very observations and points by you all, so thank you!!