Final Table - Good place to gamble?

[Ghaleon]

Sorry I dont have the actual hand history, but its not a complex situation so I'll just describe it briefly.

$5 + $.50 MTT on Full Tilt
564 Players
Final Table 3 players left.
I have about 120K in chips, the other two guys have about 320K each. Blinds are 5000/10,000 w/1000 Ante

I am BB and I'm dealt 8s 4s
Button calls
SB folds
BB (Me) checks

Flop 2d 5d 8d

I push all in with my pair of eights.
Button Calls and shows Qd 10d - Queen high flush

The whole final table, everyone was playing really tight. Steals were easy, but it was difficult to build chips that way since everyone was doing it. I was severely short stacked (both guys covered me 3 to 1). I saw a free flop and hit top pair. I felt the button's limp could mean just about anything so I gambled hoping he didn't have a higher pair or two diamonds.

I was wrong. Bad break? or should I have waited for a better opportunity?

[ChrisBCritter]

Final 3. TP can usually be the nuts. You just got coolered. Better opportunities don't come too often at these blind levels and 3 handed. though, you weren't severely shortstacked... you still had over 10BB

The only thing. If "everyone" was stealing a lot at the final table, then a CALL should set off warning bells. He wants action!

Getting away from this hand would've been VERY difficult, no matter what you did on the flop.

Congrats on the payday!

[drmcboy]

So you shoved 110k into a 23k pot?

Why not make it 20k or somethng and then fold to a push. Even if he just has the Ad you aren't a huge favorite and it is hard to believe he shoves a dry 5 or something here.

If he just calls you can shove a non D turn.

[Ghaleon]

If I put in $20K, doesn't that mean I'm pretty much committed?

I know you're thinking "No!", but it's 3 handed, if I put in 20K and lose, that leaves me with about 90K or so in chips. That means I get five orbits before I'm blinded out, or about 15 hands or so.

What are the odds I'll get a hand better than top pair in those fifteen hands? What are the odds I'll even get to see a flop? I would be pretty much in push/fold mode hoping to get a pair, or a big ace or something.

However, I see what you're saying. If he has two over cards, and one of them is a diamond, he's got 14 outs. For example if he has Ad 9c, then he has 9 diamonds, Ah, As, Ac, 9h, 9s. That would make him a favorite after the flop. If he has 1 over card and a diamond (like Ad 7c), then he's got twelve outs, which is about a coinflip.

And going into push/fold mode after I get away from this hand is going to get me into a lot of coinflip situations anyways.

So I guess, either way, my chances were the same.

[drmcboy]

you just said they are playing tight, you can still steal pots with 90k.

You act like it's always a flip. My point is often it's a flip, but sometimes he rolls over 8T or 85 or a flush and you're drawing almost dead. I'd much rather take my chances open shoving one of the next two hands.

[mcatdog]

I think you need to explain how the action went on the flop. Did he check to you? I think if he checks, you bet 20K, and he calls, then I'm done with the hand against this player because he's slow-playing too often. If you do have the best hand, it'll be checked down.

[Ghaleon]

I had top pair, but like you said, sometimes he'll show 8T, 85, or a flush, and I'll be completely crushed.

If I take your advice, couldn't my open shove with some playable cards be met by AA, KK, AK, or some other dominating hand just as often as my top pair could be met by two pair or a flush?

As for the tight play, and the ability to steal. It wasn't quite that clear since two hands previously we were five handed. Four of us had about 100 - 125K in chips and one guy had 320K. Then one guy tripled up and suddenly we were three handed.

I figured any reads I had on the table could change drastically once we went from 5 to 3 handed.

[Ghaleon]

I think you need to explain how the action went on the flop. Did he check to you? I think if he checks, you bet 20K, and he calls, then I'm done with the hand against this player because he's slow-playing too often. If you do have the best hand, it'll be checked down.

I was first to act.

I really can't see checking here unless I'm planning a check-raise all-in. Which would have ended the same way. I guess it would be the safer play in case he had nothing and was just taking a stab at the pot, I could extract a few more chips by check-raising. However, with three diamonds out there, how can I justify giving him a free card??

[mcatdog]

Oops, missed that he was the button and not the small blind. Being out of position sucks. I'd definitely bet the flop but I'm not sure what I'd do if I got action.

It's not a big deal to give free cards when you have such a weak hand.

[drmcboy]

There are a lot more combinations of diamond diamond, 8x and or PPs he may have been slow playing that he can have on the flop than AA, KK or AK, but that really isn't the point. "I could run into AA next hand" is a pretty bad reason to do anything. YOU could pick up AA next hand too.

Almost his entire range to call a flop shove is a flip or has you in bad shape - even if he somehow has a worse 8 you'll chop.

If you lead 20k and he shoves, at least then you can hope he has nothing or a lower pair, but putting all 100k in now means he can fold all that.

Again, I would just fold to the push, but your money goes in much better calling his push on the flop rather than him calling yours.

[Jack Sawyer]

The whole final table, everyone was playing really tight. Steals were easy...

..then keep stealing. No need to put in 6x the pot for your tournament life on a single pair with no hope in hell for a redraw.

Steal lotso potso pf.


If the players remaining are tight, you have to be more aggro, but smartly so.

[dev]

That's not a great flop... Honestly, bigger stacks can call you with all sorts of stuff, some stuff that has you beat, nothing that you beat by much. Out of position, I'm check folding here. He can trap me if he checks behind, but the turn would have to be a non-diamond 2-8, in which case I probably shove.

You don't have to get desperate, wait for a spot where you're likely to get a fold or you have a hand that beats his calling range by a fair amount.

[daven]

you still have enough chips to play poker on this flop - you aren't reduced to push-fold quite yet. If you're beaten you're out, if you're ahead you don't gain much. Choose a better spot.