KQo in BB to button raise ($27)

[taipan168]

Opp's stats 33/14 over 180 hands. What's your move preflop? Fold, call or re-raise (shove)?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t4160)
MP2 (t1490)
CO (t960)
Button (t1220)
SB (t810)
Hero (t1490)
UTG (t1395)
UTG+1 (t1975)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, Q.
5 folds, Button raises to t150, 1 fold, Hero ????

[AlexMorris]

I absolutely despise shoving with KQ until blinds are a lot higher. Typically, I fold this. You have tons of chips and beat KJ, QJ and JT, that's it. If you call and hit the flop, you have no idea where you're at and you're OOP.

[taipan168]

I absolutely despise shoving with KQ until blinds are a lot higher. Typically, I fold this. You have tons of chips and beat KJ, QJ and JT, that's it. If you call and hit the flop, you have no idea where you're at and you're OOP.

You don't think that a player that steals a lot from the button might be doing this with a much much wider range than just broadway cards, pocket pairs and Ax?

[AlexMorris]

If he has a history of raising any two on the button, I may call here, but KQ tends to play horrendously OOP, and I still loath shoving KQ with 30xBB.

[badgers]

Stack sizes are horrible for this hand. Too deep to shove and you can't reraise then fold. I guess just fold it...

Obv you beat quite a bit of his range but you just can't shove and calling is rubbish.

[drmcboy]

why don't you try dropping down a few levels and taking flops, or playing limit, or something? Sometimes you have to take a flop in hold em, it's kinda the centerpiece of the game.

I don't hate just moving in here or re raising (lol that they are the same) but calling seems a lot better.

Obv you beat quite a bit of his range but you just can't shove and calling is rubbish.

I suck at cash games

Sometimes the answer is closer than you think.

[drmcboy]

just to be clear, it's just way too exlpoitable to fold KQ here IMO to a button raise. It's a top 10 % hand, and it plays much better with a call than other top 10 % hands in this spot like 77-99 since to call with those we need to win a lot of the times we don't flop a set.

[mcatdog]

I like to call and c/r all-in if you flop top pair, or any decent draw.

[mcatdog]

If you call and hit the flop, you have no idea where you're at and you're OOP.

"No idea?" That's just not true. If you make top pair then you have a good hand and you're ahead most of the time. You don't know where you're at unless you have the nuts but a lot of weaker hands are still good enough that they're worth getting all-in with.

[badgers]

I take it we're check/ folding almost every flop we miss, and I'm sure we're expecting a cbet. Also, we could very easily be dominated here, even if we hit I'm not delighted to be stacking off...

Raise/ folding might be OK, depends how loose opp is, how much of his range will fold etc.
Shoving is -EV against almost every range.

I know that folding KQ is exploitable here, but I doubt opp is capable of exploiting us so it's mostly irrelevant. With a shorter stack moving in is fine, with deeper stacks calling/ reraising is fine, but I guess I'm just weak/ tight in these spots and preserve my stack for push/ fold.

[drmcboy]

we're dominated by 5 hands, I don't see how that's 'very easily'. He can raise KJ-K9 and QT, QJ so it's even easier (more non pairs than pairs and you know that list is too small) we're dominating.

I think you should think a lot about how folding here 'preserves' your stack.

[badgers]

we're dominated by 5 hands, I don't see how that's 'very easily'. He can raise KJ-K9 and QT, QJ so it's even easier (more non pairs than pairs and you know that list is too small) we're dominating.

I think you should think a lot about how folding here 'preserves' your stack.

Hmmmm, good points well made as always.

Something to ponder...

[taipan168]

OK, thanks for the replies, I actually called here and this is what happened. What do you do here?

a) Lead for 250
b) Check with the intention of C-R AI
c) Something else

Either way, are you going broke on this flop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t4160)
MP2 (t1490)
CO (t960)
Button (t1220)
SB (t810)
Hero (t1490)
UTG (t1395)
UTG+1 (t1975)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, Q.
5 folds, Button raises to t150, 1 fold, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t325) 2, K, T (2 players)
Hero ????

[badgers]

Def b imo.

Drmcboy, tai or whoever, do you think there is any value in the idea that you preserve your stack to maximize your FE when you have a greater edge. ie. missing out on a marginally +EV situation, such as this, because you know you are likely to have greater +EV situations in push/fold?

[ChrisTheFish]

Defo CR spot.

[AlexMorris]

Either way, are you going broke on this flop?

Yes, I'm going broke here if I'm beat. Most likely we're ahead and we take down the pot by betting 250, but if he plays back at us we simply call off our stack and pray that he has KJ or QJ.

This is why I fold this pre-flop. Now that we've hit we'll either take down this small pot or get stacked off. If we didn't hit, then we're check/folding. It feels like a win small / lose big situation. Unfortunately, after you bet out, you don't have enough chips to fold this against his range. If you check raise then your raise will be committing you to this hand.

[CoccoBill]

b) seems good to me.

[drmcboy]

the point I was making is that you aren't just preserving 150 chips here, you're losing 50. You may have a lower median stack if you make the call, but if it's +EV the larger stacks you end up with may more than compensate.

Also, the problem I have with your argument is you can use it to fold any hand since you can't quantify your edge or lack thereof in push/fold. And, I find it hard in a world full of 60/40s, donks who can shove and donks who call too much to think that good players are better off leaving it to push fold rather than taking a flop.

Tai,

I would CR AI here because any hand you don't want to give a free card to will probably bet anyway. A on the turn will suck if he checks but I don't want to let him off easy if he totally missed.

[badgers]

the point I was making is that you aren't just preserving 150 chips here, you're losing 50. You may have a lower median stack if you make the call, but if it's +EV the larger stacks you end up with may more than compensate.

Yep, I did get the idea about not wanting to be blinded away because we're so tight. Pwning the bubble with a large stack sounds good also, I'm not flaming or arguing for the sake etc, just pondering.

Also, the problem I have with your argument is you can use it to fold any hand since you can't quantify your edge or lack thereof in push/fold. And, I find it hard in a world full of 60/40s, donks who can shove and donks who call too much to think that good players are better off leaving it to push fold rather than taking a flop.

I feel confident, as I'm sure Tai does, that I have an edge when the stacks are short at the stakes that I play. What I meant was, say this was THE borderline hand, very slightly +$EV. I think it is correct to fold (not neccesarily this hand) in that scenario in the same way that you fold slightly +EV hands when push/folding.

But then, I'm not good enough at maths to work out the exact range, cbetting range, folding range etc. particularly without reads, so I don't know. It was just a thought.

[bjsaust]

I take a flop here all day. Nothing wrong with limping or calling with BB = 50 chips. Next round I probably cut calling out of my game though.

I may even be tempted to play post flop even if I dont hit, but probably not without reads on opp.

Just because end game is mainly about p/f poker, doesnt mean we dont play at all until then without a monster. I think some people take the 'play tight early' advice a little too far.

[taipan168]

OK, I tried for the C-R AI on the flop but it didn't work and opp checked behind. What do you do on the turn? Have to lead, right?

Flop: (t325) 2, K, T (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t325) 7 (2 players)
Hero ????

[bjsaust]

Yeah, gotta lead here. 200-250.

[taipan168]

Yeah, gotta lead here. 200-250.

Exactly what I did. I'm getting it AI here, right?

Turn: (t325) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t250, Button raises to t600, Hero ????

[bjsaust]

I've just been tossing this around in my head.

We expect villian to fold turn most of the time. If not, he's probably trapping, because of this I probably lean towards a turn bet of more like 200, however that looks weak and could induce a bluff.

Time for some higher level thinking I guess. The question now is, what hand does opp put us on and what hands does he do this with? Does he think we're bluffing since he checked flopped? Or does he have a hand he wants to play against a top pair? Why did he check flop if he's going to raise turn?

Lets see, we've put 400 into pot so far, so we have 1090 in our stack at this point. Pot is 1175. Button has about 500 chips left.

I think I push here. We could face a TP weaker kicker, middle pair, PP < KK, heck even a draw enough time that we have odds to make this play even with the chance Opp could be trapping and have us drawing almost dead (or dead if he has KK).

Nasty spot though.

Is there some merit to a smaller turn bet which we plan to fold if he raises us?

I guess this is a case where we wanted to get all our chips in if we hit, and we hit, so we stick to the plan.

[drmcboy]

yeah, I guess move in because if he checked Kx that we beat he might check river after we call here but he'll call a turn push. and with him having 500 behind we can't get away whatever happens on river. Plus, we checked flop so he may think we're just messing around or picked up a draw.

[ChrisTheFish]

Yep, now you get your money in and sometimes curse at a dodgy 2 pair hand, but sometimes lol @ A high and ship the pot.

[GatorJH]

Tai, GREAT POST!!!

Now grab a cup of coffee as I weigh in on the pre-flop action (sorry for backing up, but am just now getting caught up on posting) as well as where we are now. Feel free to skip the pre-flop stuff if you feel like that has been beat to death, but I do want to weigh in on it.

Pre-flop - I think Drmcboy is more right here than Badgers for the following reason. As Drmcboy mentioned when you have someone who is continuously stealing from the button you a) know he is raising with a VERY wide hand and b) absolutely HAVE to get him out of that habit before he dwindles your stack down to push/fold mode.

It is much better to see a flop here and play back at villian when stack sizes are large enough to allow for post flop play. In many cases, all it takes is for you to call, then lead out on the flop here to tighten up his range.

Also, it is quite obvious that when someone continuously steals from the button or CO (and gets away with it) that they are a thinking player. If you wait till you have a "premium hand" to push back they will know that you now have a hand and will fold and will continuously pound you till you push back more than once. You have to be able to play back at them earlier in the tourney to let them know that you know what they are doing and won't stand for it.

Now, back to the turn.......

Wow, what hands could villian have here that play like this? I don't think he checks behind with a T or 2 because he would have to worry that you could hit something on the turn. I DO think though, that if he has any K or luckily hit two pair that he would check behind hoping you make a run at the pot on the turn.

It is also possible that he is now on a flush or str8 draw and thinks that his raise can push you off of a weak pair or top pair weak kicker.

Finally, I do think that if he were moderately strong here (two pair, TPTK, etc.) he would have simply pushed over your bet to maximize his FE.

Net, net....... I think you are either ahead or WAY behind here and would lean more toward ahead.

ALL YOU CAN EAT BABY - push em in!!!!!

[Geanosssss]

meh after he checks the flop and raises your turn bet he has a big hand here a large % of the time. I shove over his turn raise and curse when he shows me a set of 10s or AK.

[ChrisTheFish]

meh after he checks the flop and raises your turn bet he has a big hand here a large % of the time. I shove over his turn raise and curse when he shows me a set of 10s or AK.

I can't see opp checking behind on that flop with AK.

[GatorJH]

meh after he checks the flop and raises your turn bet he has a big hand here a large % of the time. I shove over his turn raise and curse when he shows me a set of 10s or AK.

I can't see opp checking behind on that flop with AK.

Why not? The board is a great board for AK and villian has been aggressive so far. If he is a smart player this would be a great spot for a trap.

[mcatdog]

Folding here is kind of like folding something like 88 in the BB when the SB has 9x left and raises 3x. Yeah it might be the case that he only does that with hands that beat you, but it'd be so exploitable to fold that I just say FU and go all-in anyway. Probably a leak but I don't care because it can't be that big of one, only folding can be.

What I hate about this spot is that these guys think they're so clever for checking TT on the flop when they would've obviously had your entire stack if they'd just bet like a normal person.

Finally, I do think that if he were moderately strong here (two pair, TPTK, etc.) he would have simply pushed over your bet to maximize his FE.

What? Why?

[GatorJH]

Finally, I do think that if he were moderately strong here (two pair, TPTK, etc.) he would have simply pushed over your bet to maximize his FE.

What? Why?

I would think that a moderately strong hand (i.e. one that is succeptable to being drawn out on) would be happy with taking this pot down now versus focusing on getting all of our chips.

[TLR]

Nice thread

Preflop: I am withdrmcboy here, calling is the best line, this is still the stage where there is value to postflop game

Flop: Checking with the intention to check raise is good, too bad it did not work.

Turn: I am shoving over, you got the flop you hoped for, he may be reraising with a better hand, but also with KJ/9, FD, mid PP etc...