Taking notes and profiling your opponents

[pecas]

I play sit-n-go since more than one year ($5, $10, $20), standard speed, Party, Full Tilt and Ongame primarily. I played a lot, about 5-6000 tournaments, and my results aren't as good as I was hoping. I have winning periods, then losing ones, and all in all I'm positive, but only thanks to bonus/rakeback deals.
I think my strategy is good, i.e. when looking at SNGWizard or SNG Power Tools, I make few errors.

I completely lack in taking notes/profiling my opponents. I read a lot of books and all of them tell to learn to read your opponents taking notes, but I never do that. I just can't, too tedious for me. So I play my strategy and put my opponents on reasonable ranges, but without having reads. On a side note this is why I choose to play STT... thinking that I could be good to go even skipping this thing... isn't it just 100 hands or so?

Recently I noticed how my results are better when I switch between poker rooms. I always start winning, then I lose back my money until I change poker room again. Seems like someone else is taking notes on me seriously... So my questions:
1. how important do you feel it is to profile your opponents?
2. do you think your opponents are profiling you regularly even at those low buyins?
On a side note: I was winning big with my strategy at Party before the US ban. Traffic was higher, and maybe profiling/being profiled was not an issue.

[DetroitHusling101]

Hm wonder what others think. I don't really take notes but I'm also playing 3.40's and only have 350-400 games under my belt so far.
I think a lot of people use Poker Ace HUD which automatically shows whatever stats you have on the opponent in your PT database.
I have Poker Ace HUD and PT but havn't used either.
When i get to the higher buy ins i think it will be a more valuable tool for me.
My only tool is my 5 free searches at sharkscope , and all that does is really tell me if my opponent is a winning player or not.

[drmcboy]

1) When you switch sites, it's because you are thinking about poker more. Then you get bored with poker and play bad. You get the itch again, see a good bonu$/rb deal, switch sites and play better again for a while
1a) in general, if taking any notes seems tedious, you may not have the personality type to succeed long term. BUT, playing 5k plus SNGs argues against that, as does reading about poker.

2) at a minimum, you should make a note that you have played with someone. that way you can figure out if people who play against you are playing you better. Unless you play a super loose or super tight style, I doubt it.

3) Assuming your style changes with the blinds, you should be happy if people are running a HUD against you.

4) Basically, I work with a general model of how I expect people to play and just note exceptions if I see them. If I see someone standard raise with a hand and c-bet the flop, that's not a note. If they re raise with AK and call a shove getting 2/1, that's not a note either. But if they min raise with AA, then check call every street, THAT's a note. Raising 6 hands in a row is a note. Firing three streets with a gut shot draw is a note (it says SEXY PLAYER).

Against the majority of players I see more than once, I have at most one comment - TIGHT or GAMBOOOOL - which is usually all I have time to figure out.

[pecas]

Thanks for your answers.
One of the facts that keeps me on studying more how my opponents behave is that Ongame network (where I play the most) is not compatible with PT for tournament hands (they can't be imported).
Just recently I bought Poker Academy Prospector, but though this software has potentiality, as it is now it's way worse than PT in terms of stats you can retrieve.
I prefer Ongame because it suits best my playing style, and because of the neverending bonus, which keeps me alive.

As for the books, actually two things bother me and are the most probable things that keep me from winning long term:

1. The argument of this thread. Every book recommends to learn to read/take notes, and I don't... I do just like drmcboy, just notice some strange behaviours, but rarely have a real read: I always assume my opponent is thinking, which is not true in many cases.
2. I play "by the book". Tight at the start, loosen up when the blinds go up, use ICM considerations on the bubble and ITM. I'm not good heads-up (slightly below 50%), and this counts too. But more than that, maybe the fact is that before the UIGEA, playing by the book was sufficient to overcome the rake, now it isn't anymore, also considering that most of the players read books. In few words, maybe I just wasn't able to adapt.

Now I don't want to discourage anyone, but if you look at Sharkscope leaderboards, there are not so many big winners at low limit sit-n-go, and though I read this forum regularly, I don't see many of us posting winning stats for more than 500 SNG... maybe the 10% rake is just very difficult to overcome in the long term, if you don't use some new strategy/countermeasure.

[hitorque]

i take notes when something is noteworthy. when i was playing one table at a time i took lots of notes. with 4, i just try to hit the high points, like point #4 on drmc's post - things that i would want to know next time. i haven't used any of the products that give you live info on your opponents' tendencies yet, only because i see such mixed reviews on here about them, especially that they are not really the best for sng's. notes have definitely helped out here and there, but they are no substitute for playing correctly. i'm not going to play a crazy hand just because someone who has previously been labeled a crazy donk is on my table - he can still get two good cards.

i used sharkscope for a while but, while interesting, it didn't really make me any money in and of itself, even though it seems initially like a product that would be advantageous. it didn't pay for itself.

[drmcboy]

Well, your last point isn't really valid because most small stakes winners move up, they don't play at the same level. 5-20 dollar SNGs will be beatable more or less forever assuming the legal situation stays as is.

If you stay around the SNG boards for a year, I can guarantee you won't see hardly any of the same faces. A few will still be around but playing cash, but mostly people post for 3 months after their first heater, go broke, and leave. Go back to the July pages and you'll see mostly different people posting. These players give the maybe 1/10 that can beat SNGs over $20 a roll so they can go try it, realize you can't beat SNGs over $100, and switch to MTTs. It's the circle of tourney life.

[pecas]

Well, your last point isn't really valid because most small stakes winners move up, they don't play at the same level. 5-20 dollar SNGs will be beatable more or less forever assuming the legal situation stays as is.

If you stay around the SNG boards for a year, I can guarantee you won't see hardly any of the same faces. A few will still be around but playing cash, but mostly people post for 3 months after their first heater, go broke, and leave. Go back to the July pages and you'll see mostly different people posting. These players give the maybe 1/10 that can beat SNGs over $20 a roll so they can go try it, realize you can't beat SNGs over $100, and switch to MTTs. It's the circle of tourney life.

Yours is a good point. Well I'll post some tournaments for review. Poker Academy Prospector promised an export function in FTR format, I can't wait for it.

[bjsaust]

I've seen some sharkscopes for winning players I'm against over thousands of sng's at low-mid stakes ($5 - $20 range). Without fail they're heavy multi-tablers playing strictly ABC SNG poker.

[fjuanl]

Just paying attention to the table in general really makes a difference. Its easy to auto-fold your bad hands and surf the internet until you get dealt another hand. But when you finally get into a tough spot, it REALLY helps being able to have info about a player.


I revised an old post you might want to look at

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...c.php?p=322544

[marmot]

I 1-table and normally make notes about the majority of people at the table. Usually this is just to label them LAGG or TAGG or whatever but i also make a note if they are particularly trappy or like to c-raise etc.

I hardly ever see these people again but it does help to focus the mind on the game and can sometimes be useful if you find yourself with a particularly difficult decision (ie you have already seen, and made a note, that opponent will push middle pair and you have top pair etc) although there's obviously other things to take into account.

I also use my free searches on SS to see who is particularly good or bad and I think it helps a little. Anything that makes you concentrate on the play and gives you information is a worthwhile enterprise, in my opinion, and certainly more productive than just surfing the web waiting for a big hand.

[AlexMorris]

more productive than just surfing the web waiting for a big hand.

surf the internet until you get dealt another hand

I just want to weigh in with these people. If you ever get tempted to do anything while playing poker (watch TV, read FTR, talk on the phone, etc.) it is a gigantic leak. Stop it!

[pecas]

Well, I usually play 8 tables on two monitors, this doesn't leave me time to do other things, and also is one of the reasons why I don't take notes and just play ABC sitngo.

[mukaka]

what is the easiest way to define your opponents as TAGG or LAGG.. Do you just look at the showdowns like me or do you do something else?