Post Flop Play with AK (6.60)

[Geanosssss]

This was in the first level. So far villain seemed like your average 6.60 player, pretty horrid.
At the time i was 6 tabling when this hand came up:

POKERSTARS GAME #12392584504: TOURNAMENT #62892733, $6.00+$0.60 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2007/10/02 - 09:27:39 (ET)
Table '62892733 1' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: alias32 (615 in chips)
Seat 3: richb123 (2120 in chips)
Seat 4: schwein84 (1245 in chips)
Seat 5: Theone130 (1810 in chips)
Seat 6: 11p0wner (3210 in chips)
richb123: posts small blind 15
schwein84: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 11p0wner [Ah Kh]
Theone130: raises 90 to 120
11p0wner: calls 120
alias32: calls 120
richb123: folds
schwein84: folds

Do you raise pre flop? If so to how much?

I will post the next bit of the hand in a bit.

[GatorJH]

The problem with the call is that there are 3 other people behind you to act and you certainly don't want to play AKs against 3-4 players. I would have re-popped it up to 250-280.

[Geanosssss]

Yea, I can see why repopping here works for some, i do repop here frequently. However my reasoning for not repopping in the spot are:
1. Hes UTG and even donkeys have a fairly tight raising range here.
2. Im comfortable in my ability to lay down TPTK or other marginal hand in multi way pot
3. Im also in early position, meaning that if i get a caller from anyone else in the field i am often going to be OOP with just ace high too often for this to be played profitably in a field full of calling stations imo.
4.Its still just the second level meaning i dont need to build a big pot.

OBV i repop QQ+ here and repop AKss at higher blind levels just not yet.

[taipan168]

I make it 300 to go here rather than calling. If I was on the button or in the CO I might call however.

[GatorJH]

The fact that you would be OOP to any callers behind in EXACTLY why you should re-raise.

By re-raising you are letting people know that you have a big hand. If anyone behind you calls you can know that they do as well, which makes it even easier to play this hand post flop. If you don't get any callers you now have position on the original caller, which is also a goooot thing

[Geanosssss]

I make it 300 to go here rather than calling. If I was on the button or in the CO I might call however.

Do you not feel raising here negates the fairly large difference in skill level between villain and I? as it reduces the effective stacks?
In hindsight I dont really like the way i played this hand.
Oh and as an extra bit of info I have only showed down one hand so far which was actually the previous hand, which i think affected my play in this hand.
Basically in the prior hand i raised 1010 from the CO and flopped quads and bet 3/4 to full pot on each street to double up. I should of put this in OP.

Anyway, next part of the hand:

*** FLOP *** [8h 6h 6s]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: bets 90
alias32: folds
Theone130: calls 90
*** TURN *** [8h 6h 6s] [Qh]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: ???

Edit: He insta checked the flop

[taipan168]

Anyway, next part of the hand:

*** FLOP *** [8h 6h 6s]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: bets 90
alias32: folds
Theone130: calls 90

Why not make a real bet on the flop? There are 395 chips in the pot and you have the nut FD plus 2 overs, so you've got up to 15 outs assuming you don't already have the best hand. I bet like 250 here.

*** TURN *** [8h 6h 6s] [Qh]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: ???

I'd bet like 350 or so here, but if you had raised preflop and/or bet more on the turn you might have been able to put opp AI here without it being a huge overbet.

[ChrisTheFish]

Iv'e played a lot of these $6 turbo's, get as much in preflop as you can, re raise to like 300 or so- you'd be suprised what your up against. On flop yah, pretty much pot it and call an all in.

[Geanosssss]

Iv'e played a lot of these $6 turbo's, get as much in preflop as you can, re raise to like 300 or so- you'd be suprised what your up against. On flop yah, pretty much pot it and call an all in.

Oh yea, sorry its a regular 6 max SNG not a turbo.

Anyway i would like to make clear that this hand was not played standardly by me on any street really. I made such a small flop bet partly cos i didnt realise how big the pot was (thought i was making a 1/3 pot bet) and also because of the UTG raisers weird line.
He made a 4xraise pre flop which suggests strength and then insta insta checked the flop.
When a donkey does this my first though is hes a donk slowplaying the nuts.
IMO when he checks this flop its skews his range to an either/or situation. Either hes hit the flop hard, (88,66 means im drawing to runner AA or KK) or is going for a check raise with 99+ which is a possibility. Or the other part of his range are hands that completely whiffed this flop, AJ+, KQs.
The fact that the board is paired makes it a much harder hand to play aggressively, considering we dont have the nuts on the turn.
Anyway heres what happened on the turn and the river:

*** TURN *** [8h 6h 6s] [Qh]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: bets 120
Theone130: raises 120 to 240
11p0wner: calls 120
*** RIVER *** [8h 6h 6s Qh] [2c]
Theone130: bets 510
11p0wner: ?????

Please post what range you have him on and whether u push turn/river and why?

[ChrisTheFish]

Smaller flush? just a set? Q10?

[Geanosssss]

Smaller flush? just a set? Q10?

What two smaller hearts does he raise UTG with?

The boards paired...so a set = full house = beats flush

Who raises at a full table and commits their whole stack with Q10?

His range is pretty narrow when he makes the min raise on the turn imo.

[badgers]

Wow, you've played this hand horribly and now you question whether to fold???

You are 60 BBs deep, even considering not shoving here is terrible when you are essentially readless.

You have made a ton of mistakes this hand.

1. Not raising pre, your reasoning is wrong as outlined above.
2. Assigning too tight a range to an UTG raising "donk".
3. The tiny tiny flop bet. You say you were going for 1/3 pot. Why? Do you want opp to fold - all you have is A high. In order for betting draws to be profitable you need FE (unless you're >50% to win obv.)
4. The bet on the turn is WAYYY too small. BUILD A POT - aim to get opp all in on the river.
5. Even considering not shoving river. LOADS of hands call, he is a "donk" etc.
I'm sure there are more mistakes too...

His range is not pretty narrow when he min-raises the turn. I could see QT+, any 6, 66, 88, 99+ here.

I can't see that you're arguing for a fold, and you clearly beat most of his shove calling range. What are you waiting for?

ABC POKER WINS AT SMALL STAKES SnGs. Stop being fancy, (re)read Tai's small stakes SnG winning post.

End rant.

[Geanosssss]

LOL u dont seem to understand the importance of having an above average stack when the blinds reach 50/100+ and around the bubble. Doubling my stack is less improtant than not putting my stack at risk. I can outplay donks all day long why risk my whole stack when i dont have the nuts?
Anyway Badgers sir, time for results:
POKERSTARS GAME #12392584504: TOURNAMENT #62892733, $6.00+$0.60 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2007/10/02 - 09:27:39 (ET)
Table '62892733 1' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: alias32 (615 in chips)
Seat 3: richb123 (2120 in chips)
Seat 4: schwein84 (1245 in chips)
Seat 5: Theone130 (1810 in chips)
Seat 6: 11p0wner (3210 in chips)
richb123: posts small blind 15
schwein84: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 11p0wner [Ah Kh]
Theone130: raises 90 to 120
11p0wner: calls 120
alias32: calls 120
richb123: folds
schwein84: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h 6h 6s]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: bets 90
alias32: folds
Theone130: calls 90
*** TURN *** [8h 6h 6s] [Qh]
Theone130: checks
11p0wner: bets 120
Theone130: raises 120 to 240
11p0wner: calls 120
*** RIVER *** [8h 6h 6s Qh] [2c]
Theone130: bets 510
11p0wner: calls 510
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Theone130: shows [8s 8d] (a full house, Eights full of Sixes)
11p0wner: shows [Ah Kh] (a flush, Ace high)
Theone130 collected 2085 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2085 | Rake 0
Board [8h 6h 6s Qh 2c]
Seat 1: alias32 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: richb123 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: schwein84 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Theone130 showed [8s 8d] and won (2085) with a full house, Eights full of Sixes
Seat 6: 11p0wner showed [Ah Kh] and lost with a flush, Ace high

I posted this because i thought it was an interesting hand. And if you have any doubt about my low stakes SNG skills please feel free to sharkscope me. Oh and dont forget the standard 'youre being results orientated, 9 out of 10 times youll be ahead bla bla

[ChrisTheFish]

Yah, i meant a bare 6 when i said set, sorry.

Basically he could have a wide range here, never say never at low stakes.

[b-rabbit]

i'm gonna go out on a line here and put the guy on 88

[hitorque]

like to see a raise pf like others have suggested to narrow the field. since he played his pocket 8's strong from the beginning, he may have still played anyway. after that, you just are looking at a bad beat here. the nut flush should have kicked everyone's butt. i would have put him on trips or a smaller flush. it would be a rare day where i would lay down a nut flush - i'd rather lose the tourney and try again. i certainly wouldn't have laid it down this time. i would have tipped my hat to the villain and moved on.

[taipan168]

I would go broke here every time at a $6.60 SNG. There's just NO way you can put opp on a full house when you make the nut flush on the turn. Of course, that's not to say that 88 or QQ are not in opp's range, just that there are SO many more hands that you beat than beat you that would play exactly the same as this.

I think NOT getting it AI at some point here (I would have tried to be AI on the turn) is a leak - sure, sometimes you pay off a better hand but most of the time you double up and thank the donkey for his chips.

BTW, you can't wait until you have the nuts to get all your chips in. Sure, you do need to be a bit careful on a paired board but I'd happily go broke here every time against a player you describe as a donk.

[Geanosssss]

Yea, I agree thatif I played this hand optimally in the long run, then i probly should have gone broke.
Howver i had this weird feeling throughout the hand that i was beat. This, I think contributed to the small bets throughout as i had this feeling i was behind. I mentioned that this hand was not standard for me many times in this thread.
I havent been able to get this hand out of my head all day because it went down so weird. Obv if double him up here i jus move on and brush it off as a cooler as these type of hands happen all the time.
Also to be fair, none of you had the timing tells, previous hands etc. which I had which kinda resulted in the weird play of the hand.
I think Timex once said he 'doesnt care about the result in the long run, he cares about the result that time around.'
An as the hand played out so strangely, i feel i done ok in not going broke.

[taipan168]

I think Timex once said he 'doesnt care about the result in the long run, he cares about the result that time around.'

You shouldn't care about the results at all whether over the short or long term. It's making the correct decision that counts here.

An as the hand played out so strangely, i feel i done ok in not going broke.

This is being results oriented. It's true that none of us were at the table, but having a "feeling" you're beat isn't a good reason to play the way you did. I often pull beginners (which you're clearly not by # of tourneys played and results) when they say, "I had a feeling he had AK" when there were loads of other hands they could have. As I said, I think opp plays like this with way more hands that you beat than beat you.

[Geanosssss]

Meh im too tired and drunk to make a post about why i did what I did however i will make an attempt to explain my thought process when he instachecked flop:

ZOMFG N00b is checking the nuts DUM piece of S&%T no way im going broke on this hand im SOOOOOOOOOO gonna spite show him my nut flush when he doesnt get all of my chips and tell him he got SFPwnt.

pz out

[Jack Sawyer]

Hand was lost pf.
Repop with the f'n AhKh. You are really afraid of exactly two hands here.
Don't get cute.

[badgers]

I don't really care about the results, I put 88 in his range, he had 88 so I'm not exactly suprised. I'm also not suprised that you've taken this opportunity to essentially make a brag thread when you clearly played the hand horribly.

I think you played the hand terribly, you are being results orientated. You say you know you didn't play the hand optimally but still stand by your play? This makes NO SENSE!!!

Anyway I'm not posting again on this thread again because I've made my views very clear and I don't want to start a flame war...

[Geanosssss]

I don't really care about the results, I put 88 in his range, he had 88 so I'm not exactly suprised. I'm also not suprised that you've taken this opportunity to essentially make a brag thread when you clearly played the hand horribly.

I think you played the hand terribly, you are being results orientated. You say you know you didn't play the hand optimally but still stand by your play? This makes NO SENSE!!!

Anyway I'm not posting again on this thread again because I've made my views very clear and I don't want to start a flame war...

What range do you give him?
Nobody has given me a clear range of hands. Nobody.

[badgers]

I could see QT+, any 6, 66, 88, 99+ here.

Btw this puts me on life tilt.

LOL u dont seem to understand the importance of having an above average stack when the blinds reach 50/100+ and around the bubble. Doubling my stack is less improtant than not putting my stack at risk. I can outplay donks all day long why risk my whole stack when i dont have the nuts?

You think I don't understand ICM? Seriously, no more posts this time.

[taipan168]

What range do you give him?
Nobody has given me a clear range of hands. Nobody.

OK, based on the info you provided I'd say the following:

- Preflop: Any pocket pair, any two face cards, Ax, KT+, QJ, JT, suited connectors.
- Flop (after check/call): Any pocket pair, two hearts (broadway + SCs), A6, A8.
- Turn (after check/minraise): 66, 88, 99+, two hearts, A6, A8, AQ.
- River: Two hearts, 66, 88, 99+, AQ, A6, A8.

I think you'll find that AhKh crushes opp's range on all streets.