i'm confused

[Chopper]

i cant remember my thoughts on villain here. so, i guess assume no reads other than he's playing in a lot of hands, and i have at least noticed that and, therefore, have little respect for him, as well as position, at the moment. some of my thoughts are posted in bold throughout the hand.

hand...
Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($30.45)
SB ($8.85)
BB ($106.59)
Hero ($26)
MP ($36.15)
CO ($48.36)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $1, MP calls $1, 3 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.10) , , (3 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.75, MP folds, BB calls $2.
the raise here was to get it HU, and possibly take the pot down right here.

Turn: ($8.60) (2 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75.
now who leads into this board with this dinky bet? flush draws trying to block? or someone trying to look like a flush draw? or just simply an idiot? i call because i dont want to get shoved over...but realize the spot that just put me in because he now has license to fire a big bet on the river, regardless of the card. this is where i think i went off track. do you raise again, or fold? personally, once i called, my mind was fairly made up that i had to call a river, unless the flush hit.

River: ($10.10) (2 players)
BB bets $9.75, Hero calls $9.75.
hard call, imo. because the flush didnt hit, but the board paired, and i dont like "kicker battles" when i raised and villain called the raise. a lot of times this is AK. but, wouldn't AK have tried to take away the hand with a bigger turn bet?

Final Pot: $29.60

Results in white below:
BB doesn't show.
Hero has Qh Kd (two pair, kings and fives).

i really am not sure what happened here. i figured him for a bluff or something that had me beat. i only called the turn for "pot control," full-well knowing i was going to get a bet from him on the river, but i thought it would be smaller based on the previous leads. i think the bigger bet made me think, "missed flush." and, i think thats why i called.

but, is the call +EV? i dont think it is. i think i may have gotten lucky with my timing here.

thoughts? even though the converter didnt say, i saw his cards. i'll post it later on.

[Kagey]

I'm generally playing these min turn bets by Villain as if he has checked.
I.e. raise enough not to give him a cheap card, but not too much to build a huge pot. I think I raise to 4.50ish.

[will641]

raise turn, fold to shove. his line looks like or possibly pair and a flush draw, and he may have tripped up on the river or possibly a set.

[jyms]

I don't play KQo from UTG ever.

[Dislexsik]

I don't play KQo from UTG ever.

i do, always

[jackvance]

It's kinda villain specific what these stupid little bets mean.. but once you know it's a good read. The way it goes down now it's either a flush draw sorta hand trying a last stab (bluff) at the pot on the river because you wavered on the turn.. or it's a monster who wants to get paid. From your read you say he's kinda loose, so I like the call.

[Chopper]

thanks guys.

btw, TJ, wow, never? i think at 10NL and 25NL, it grabs a ton of value with cbets in HU pots.

this spot, on the other hand, while difficult, imo, is rather rare.

[bigspenda73]

As5s

raise turn, it's a flush draw 105% of the time.

[bode]

I don't play KQo from UTG ever.

i do, always

qft

[kmind]

Well, I'm with ya TJ.

[Deanglow]

Don't let them draw so cheap when it's obvious. Raise that turn.

[bigspenda73]

I don't play KQo from UTG ever.

i do, always

qft

I play it UTG, when we're 5 handed.....

[bigspenda73]

thanks guys.

btw, TJ, wow, never? i think at 10NL and 25NL, it grabs a ton of value with cbets in HU pots.

You can only play KQ0 profitably UTG if your opponents calling ranges are wide or if you are significantly better postflop than them even when OOP. KQ0 against a calling range does not have a +EV advantage and you'll be OOP more often than not.

[Chopper]

agreed, but...

when you are tight, like i tend to be, you get a fair amount of respect when raising UTG. and, usually, the only callers come from the blinds thanks to TJ reminding me to focus again on seat selection.

i keep the loosies on my right, and the tighties on my left. if i dont see that after 20ish hands, i leave. therefore, if i get the folds like usual, the only callers have ranges a good bit wider than KQ. i see KT, K8, Q9s. of course, i dont take it very far past the flop when i get resistance.

i know that sounds standard, but i feel it "tips the scales" for me. i'm not the best post flop, i think you guys know that, but when these guys generally fold to a UTG raise and, if necessary, a cbet...doesnt that make a slightly -EV hand more likely to be +EV...if you are only 18ish/11ish?

and, i really wanted to raise that turn. but, at the last minute, i out-thought myself and said, "AK would call your raise, if he's passive or expecting a cbet," and only called. it was right after i called that i went..."aaaahhhhh SHIT! look what i just did to myself...dammit." i thought about the flush draw...and AK...and the str8 that hit, too. and, like a nit, it scared me just long enough to click "call."

i know that contradicted myself, and provides evidence of why you dont play/raise KQo UTG, but i swear those spots are pretty rare.

sure as i say that, it will happen to me 5 times in a row here in a couple hours...lol.

thx again.

[Chopper]

here is what i meant before about KQ UTG. this wasnt a tough hand, and is more indicative of how it plays...

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($62.82)
Button ($24.08)
SB ($19.90)
BB ($4.95)
Hero ($22.55)
MP ($8.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, K.
Hero raises to $1, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 2 folds.

Flop: ($3.35) J, 6, 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.
too much interest, oop, cant play it...

Turn: ($3.35) T (3 players)
Hero bets $2.25, MP folds, Button folds.
bet the draw since they checked around the flop, and hopefully take it down.

Final Pot: $3.35

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $3.35.

i think this is the value of KQo UTG. hits some hands, some draws, but when you initiate the action, you have the power. it just so happens, at this level, most of these players suck and wont test you too often w/o a hand. if anyone calls the turn, i check/fold river w/o my str8 or overs hitting. i dont see how its unprofitable if you use it at passive tables.

[jyms]

The problem with most hands like this is they bring in the toughest spots in poker. The toughest spots in poker are not where we make most of our money. At $10NL or $50NL, even $100NL, most of our money comes from playing in position or playing strong hands OOP. To play a marginal hand OOP is such a minimal EV play over the long term, whether it's + or - is not important. What kind of gain do we see playing this hand? Our we that much better than our opponents that this hand is worth that much? If so, we can play a lot more hands than 18ish/11ish and you or I should be playing 35/25.


I get what you guys are trying to say, but below $200NL leave the edges for your elbows.

[martindcx1e]

As5s

raise turn, it's a flush draw 105% of the time.

60% of the time it works every time

[Chopper]

The problem with most hands like this is they bring in the toughest spots in poker. The toughest spots in poker are not where we make most of our money. At $10NL or $50NL, even $100NL, most of our money comes from playing in position or playing strong hands OOP. To play a marginal hand OOP is such a minimal EV play over the long term, whether it's + or - is not important. What kind of gain do we see playing this hand? Our we that much better than our opponents that this hand is worth that much? If so, we can play a lot more hands than 18ish/11ish and you or I should be playing 35/25.


I get what you guys are trying to say, but below $200NL leave the edges for your elbows.

dont think me getting pissy here. i just see this as a good discussion/debate point.

if you have minimal EV on a holding, doesnt that make you WANT to play it more for "range"? my reasoning is...if i am not going to lose much on a hand, and am nitty by nature, arent i bringing about a false image of myself? dont i appear to be a bit looser than i really am? and, wont that buy me action on my better holdings long-term?

i know "these guys dont pay attention" ..bla bla but, i think they do more than we give them credit for...they just suck. there's too much PT talk in the chats, or "you rock" comments for me to think they arent paying a little attention, imo.

[Silly String]

I don't think playing KQo UTG it going to make observant villains think you are that much looser. I understand and agree with your general point about playing neutral EV holdings for image/range expansion purposes, but save that shit for the CO/BU.
Which hand do you think is going to give you a looser image to the table: KQo UTG or T8s OTB?


That said: I play KQo UTG all day at 25NL and below. 100NL I probably need to reevaluate the EV of my callers depending upon table selection that is available.

[jyms]

Which hand do you think is going to give you a looser image to the table: KQo UTG or T8s OTB?

Now we are getting somewhere. Is there such a thing as positionally aware opponents at $50NL and under? If there are are we extracting any money from them. Will they pay off your two pair, trips and broadway straights enough to still make it viable to play. I would think if I am opening my range UTG or in general, there are better hands to use. 78s, T9s even 68s would surely blur your range and play much easier from UTG.

And Chopper, having a polarized discussion is what we are here to do. Your never coming across as pissy, it's all good. Nobody ever has a discussion about what to do with AA UTG, so we need to find the marginal holdings for discussion. Or we can just ask BanketteBot.

[bigspenda73]

String hits the nail on the head, IF we won't to project a looser image let's do it by playing looser in position.

[Chopper]

Nobody ever has a discussion about what to do with AA UTG, so we need to find the marginal holdings for discussion. Or we can just ask BanketteBot.

one of the funnier statements i've read in awhile.

i guess what i am getting at is...why not play them all? KQ0 UTG, T8s OTB...if they are ALL neutral EV, then we should play them all.

if we can find 50 holdings that are neutral EV, and use position accordingly, too, we should get our premiums paid very well. i'm exaggerating the 50, but i think i was being too specific to KQo. i should have said, "any neutral EV holding." and, i also guess i meant that "i think KQo UTG is still very profitable at these levels, too."

and, i like the point of 67s UTG in for a raise because its easier to play than KQ on a flop...but i dont have those kind of balls, yet. your av prolly has bigger balls than me sometimes.

[bigspenda73]

that's the thing though Chopper, you're going to need bigger "balls" to play flops with KQ than you would with 67s. It's pretty simple with that hand, you flop a big hand or you don't. KQ will get you into some fun spots against dominating ranges.

[Chopper]

so, do you even bother cbetting 67s UTG into a caller if it completely whiffed?

i have at least the confidence to cbet KQ because the overcards come on occasion to rescue me. 67 has no TP potential, and if the board comes high, its likely hit the villain.

i just cant see a reason to cbet 67s UTG. and if i cant, why even bother with it? which is why it will be hard to take AJ and KQ out of my UTG range...because i can cbet with those hands.

is that horrible?

[Silly String]

Lets assume we c-bet both hands and are called. Now what? That is where KQ gets you in trouble. Up to this point we have spent $6 or so, now we have $44 more dollars behind. With 67s we give up and c/f and lose 12BB. Big deal.
With KQo we are put to a test when we hit our K or Q on the board. What if villain smooth called a set, just made 2 pr or out overcard made their flush. Now we are in a tough spot OOP. What if we are raised on the flop with KQ after we hit our hand. We basically are deciding to play for stacks if we continue with the hand.
see: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=discuss

[bigspenda73]

so, do you even bother cbetting 67s UTG into a caller if it completely whiffed?

i have at least the confidence to cbet KQ because the overcards come on occasion to rescue me. 67 has no TP potential, and if the board comes high, its likely hit the villain.

i just cant see a reason to cbet 67s UTG. and if i cant, why even bother with it? which is why it will be hard to take AJ and KQ out of my UTG range...because i can cbet with those hands.

is that horrible?

My cbets are polarized in a sense. I'll cbet absolute air just b/c it's so profitable to do so. I'll also cbet, TP+, sets, 8+out draws.

I'll tend to check behind a lot with hands with mediocre/decent showdown value, as in middle pair, or 88 on a Q hi board, and even gutshots playing more for pot control with these hands.

[jyms]

quick example

You raise 76s UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Axx, You C bet repping the A,they fold.
You raise KQo UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Axx, You C bet repping the A, they fold.

You raise 76s UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Axx, You C bet repping the A,they raise, you fold
You raise KQo UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Axx, You C bet repping the A, they raise, you fold

You raise 76s UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Kxx, You C bet repping the K,they raise, you fold
You raise KQo UTG 4BB, button calls, blinds fold, Flop Kxx, You C bet repping the K, they raise, you shit your pant's

The biggest difference is where do we make the big money. Any combo draw, two pair hand will destroy a buttons calling range. Your best chance at a stack will never come from a KQo hand, seriously, it would have to be a cooler, and we know they go both ways. But 76s can destroy TP, two pair hands and get it all in confidently on the flop with teh right flops.

It comes down to what will they pay you with depending on baord texture. A KQx board will never get an opponent to put all his money in the middle with JJ, or Ax, but a A45 flop with a FD can stack an A9 hand easily. when he calls your lead and spikes his 9 when you hit the flush. It's just hard to satck anyone even slightly observant when KQ makes a monster. Compare a KKQ flop to a 776 flop.

[MuddyWicket]

i follow part of what bigspender is say. folding KQ saves a lot of horrible spots. 89s raising early you know where you are far easier and it shouldnt stop the cbet. Its all down to the hand your representing and its fairly easy to shut down if you miss. If the flop is Ace high I prefer the cbet. Its exactly the hand people put you on so why stop the story now? you would if you had AQ which is a large part of your possible range. A lot of the hands that call at my stakes are speculative and fold to a bit of resistance. folding part depends on table really. The only trouble with playing hands like that early is the implied odds are reduced.

[jackvance]

But 76s can destroy TP, two pair hands and get it all in confidently on the flop with teh right flops.

You're kinda forgetting about frequency. KQo will flop TPGK 1/3 of the time, while 76s will only flop your monster <4% of the time. Usually you'll hit nothing, or middle pair, or a draw for which you have to put more money in. With KQo you play for TP and to win a small, mediumish pot. I wouldn't discount it so readily..

[jyms]

You guys all have PT? Go into your database, select all dates, select filters, then select specific hands, select exactly 3 off the button. How'd you do?

[Chopper]

wow. goot stuff. thanks for the details jym, string, and spenda. those are the kinds of answers we dont see often enough around here.

and, yes, KQ is not a "stacking hand," to me. i play it for TPTK in pots with dummies. but, i may add the sc's for the reason of stacking Tag's that have position on me and cant drop overpairs, AK, etc.

as for PT?

i opened up my 85k hand db.

the "trap hands" as i see them. i used KQ, KJ, AJ, QJ, QT. i forgot KT. i used both off-suited and suited.

UTG i am

with KQ, KJ, QT, AJ, both suited and off-suit, i am .63 BB/hand.

with 67s - TJs, i am .26 BB/hand.

that difference, i suspect is not because the "trap hands" are so much more profitable. i assume its because they have a higher TPGK quality.

to add, i dont play a lot of sc's oop, especially UTG, which could also lead to the sample size STILL being small.

let me know if i did something wrong, but i think we need to consider all "trap hands" vs. suited conns for this example. and, i also dont ever play off suited connectors, except maybe in the blinds for cheap.

[bigspenda73]

Chopper, those all NL hands?

[Chopper]

yeah, why?