4.40 FT 180-man tourney, bad call shove??

[pokerfan]

i won this 180-man tourney, finally However, i still want to talk about some hand in question coz i felt like it might be a little bit -EV call. At final table, i'd built some aggressive image ,raising lots of hands in position but villain seemed like a quiet player, not raising too much when its down to 4 guys.Also, his stats was 23.4/8.1 over 141 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t37706)
SB (t24220)
BB (t99574)
Hero (t108500)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, J.
Hero raises to t4800, 1 fold, SB raises to t24070, 1 fold, Hero ?? ( i had around 1.62 pot odds to call this shove)

[Sprayed]

Nearly 2-1. It's close. With his numbers it's probably a fold. You could fold this hand and continue to beat-up on the table. You have the short stacks to your left which is great table position. However, if you round this up to 2-1 you are better than 33% against his range.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

136,984,320 games 0.026 secs 5,268,627,692 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.442% 35.30% 02.14% 48354758 2935551.50 { KcJc }
Hand 1: 62.558% 60.41% 02.14% 82758459 2935551.50 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, AQo+ }

[pokerfan]

the pot odds was only 1.61 or so. In this situation, lots of people lean towards a fold coz they are worried about being dominated whatsoever. However, [b]once you become known as a player who won't defend his initial raise and always throw away cards when somebody else just come over the top,everyone at the table'll keep attacking you[b].(HOH2 p92)

Nearly 2-1. It's close. With his numbers it's probably a fold. You could fold this hand and continue to beat-up on the table. You have the short stacks to your left which is great table position. However, if you round this up to 2-1 you are better than 33% against his range.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

136,984,320 games 0.026 secs 5,268,627,692 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.442% 35.30% 02.14% 48354758 2935551.50 { KcJc }
Hand 1: 62.558% 60.41% 02.14% 82758459 2935551.50 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, AQo+ }

[Sprayed]

the pot odds was only 1.61 or so. In this situation, lots of people lean towards a fold coz they are worried about being dominated whatsoever. However, [b]once you become known as a player who won't defend his initial raise and always throw away cards when somebody else just come over the top,everyone at the table'll keep attacking you[b].(HOH2 p92)

Are you asking for advise or are you wanting to give it? Which is it? I said that 1.6 is close to 2-1. At the table it is hard to get the exact odds, so therefore just round it up. Playing on-line pull out your calculator. But, by rounding, it will give you more opportunities to call.

Are you trying to justify your call from a page in a book or by looking at the real hand in question? You said that your opponent had a raising range of 8%. The numbers that I showed you were your odds against a 8% range. 2-1 is 33%. You need to be better than 33% against his range in order to justify a call. You have that here.

The other issues that you have to take into consideration is your position at the table. You are the chip leader even if you fold and the short stacks are on your left. You can pound away at them and continue to build your stack if you fold this hand. Either play is find. It is trivial IMO.

[pokerfan]

yeah, i was trying to justify my call from the book i read. Pot odds looked like tossup and his situation was relatively desperate than anyone else at the table .
As played, i called his TT shove but didn't catch either a king or a J. after this hand, i stole more and more hands aggressively without much resistance and finally took down this tourney.

[mcatdog]

Relax Sprayed, people don't have to sit down and shut up for the rest of the thread after they ask a question in the OP. He's just trying to understand how a point he read in a book applies to his game...

Pokerfan, people will attack your raises once they see you folding to re-raises so after you fold to one or two of them, then you should start calling them more often in the future. But if they haven't seen you fold to any re-raises yet then Harrington's advice doesn't really apply.

Also, saying "I'm not quite getting good enough odds but I want to call anyway to defend my raise" isn't good logic. If you think people are attacking your raises then you can put them on a wider range which gives you better pot odds. It matters what you think this guy is doing right now, in this hand, not what you're worried other players at the table will do in the future.

[Sprayed]

Hey, I meant no ill will towards pokerfan. Just trying to figure out what he was asking for. Please don't misinterpret my tone. I didn't understand what he was trying to say in his reply with everything bolded and stuff.

My sincere apologies.

[chardrian]

Haha I love how comments that could start a flamewar at other forums quickly dissolves here.

Regarding the hand, you need to be ahead about 38% of the time for this to be an EV neutral call. Sprayed's range gives u a pretty good estimate as to whether or not to call just based on chip equity (and not involving table dynamics at all). If you think his range is looser than that, u call, if it's tighter u fold.

Lastly, although I agree w/mcat that what matters most is what is going on in the current hand, I disagree that you shouldn't worry about how what you do now will affect other players' future decisions. You have a chip stack here where you can say although I may be making a slightly -EV call here (for this hand only) it is worth it in the long run because the other players will know that they can't re-raise me light.

[mcatdog]

no problem sprayed

Chardrian I don't really mind if people start attacking my raises as long as I can stay one step ahead of them and take advantage. 4.40 players usually fold and fold and fold and then when they get frustrated they decide to play back and usually pick a poor spot to do so.

[pokerfan]

no need to apologize for this, sprayed
When i decided to call his shove with such a marginal hand, i thought the point i read from HOH2 might be applied to my own game here, considering that i did build super aggressive image at this final table.

[f_cKINGrockstar]

Well everyone said the pot odds were close...

I would say since the odds are close... maybe a little -EV, it's more than compensated for by supporting your aggressive image to call and the fact that you're the big stack, it's 4 handed, and it's the getting desperate shortstack who's shoving.

[DavePA]

What do the stats mean? (23.4/8.1 over 141 hands)
And where did you get them from?

[Sprayed]

What do the stats mean? (23.4/8.1 over 141 hands)
And where did you get them from?

Get poker tracker to record stats in a db. Use poker ace heads up display to put the stats on the table. Go to the sites below and read-up on them.

http://www.pokertracker.com/
http://pokeracesoftware.com/