Combo Draw v. Overs: How was this played by both?

[bigslikk]

Small Stakes SNG, 6 handed at this point, Blinds are 20/40

Stacks:
UTG: 2015 (Player 1)
UTG+1: 770
CO: 3060
BN: 2110
SB: 1640 (Player 2)
BB: 905

Player 1 calls with
UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BN folds,
Player 2 completes with
BB checks

Flop (200)


Player 2 checks, BB bets 40, Player 1 calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Player 2 raises 360 to 400, BB folds, Player 1 calls 360, UTG+1 and CO fold.

Two Players to the Turn (1080)

Player 2 bets 1200 (all-in), Player 1 calls

Comments on the play of both? What would you have done differently with one or both of the hands? Comments are appreciated.

[uscheese]

Both of these hands?

I would have folded if I was UTG with 68 and then raised 3 times if I was TT

If I got to the flop I personally would have probably raised the original bet of 40 to 120 or so and most likely called when player 2 raised it up again...

after the turn I probably check fold to any big bet like the one we see here and really bum out that I played the hand incorrectly.

Looking forward to seeing what other players say here...interesting hand

[badgers]

PLayer 1 played the hand really badly imo. Easy fold pre, I would raise the flop bet with pair and fd, then the turn shove looks pretty spewy.

Player 2, I don't mind completing and going for a set vs so many limpers, there's an argument for raising though but it doesn't matter imo. Good size flop raise and I can't see a fold on the turn, I probs play it the same.

[eugmac]

If I got to the flop I personally would have probably raised the original bet of 40 to 120 or so and most likely called when player 2 raised it up again...

after the turn I probably check fold to any big bet like the one we see here and really bum out that I played the hand incorrectly.

Which player are you talking about, 68 or TT?

Re: Player 1 (68s)

On the flop, aren't the only hands Player 1 fears 55, 88, and 99?

You're ahead of every other flush draw b/c of the pair.

So if I was player 1 I'd be betting and raising, and as played, push over player 2's big raise on the flop.

Preflop though, that's a bad limp. So I'da folded preflop too...

[badgers]

If I got to the flop I personally would have probably raised the original bet of 40 to 120 or so and most likely called when player 2 raised it up again...

after the turn I probably check fold to any big bet like the one we see here and really bum out that I played the hand incorrectly.

Which player are you talking about, 68 or TT?

Re: Player 1 (68s)

Aren't the only hands Player 1 fears 55, 88, and 99?

You're ahead of every other flush draw b/c of the pair also.

So if I was player 1 I'd be betting and raising, and as played, push over player 2's big raise on the flop.

I think he meant UTG. Raising a 40 bet into a 200 pot to only 120 is pretty pointless imo.

Oh and I meant to say player 1 should shove over the raise on the flop as played.

[bigslikk]

Oops! I made small (perhaps significant) error. Player two was playing out of the small blind, thus, it began on his action first on the turn. Player 2 (TT) shoves turn, and Player 1 (68s) calls the push.

I edited my original, which incorrectly described the turn action as: "Player 1 shoves, Player 2 calls" when really the reverse was true.

Secondary Question: Are both these hands "going all the way" once 300 is in the middle on the flop? By the turn, are both felting both?

[badgers]

Oops! I made small (perhaps significant) error. Player two was playing out of the small blind, thus, it began on his action first on the turn. Player 2 (TT) shoves turn, and Player 1 (68s) calls the push.

I edited my original, which incorrectly described the turn action as: "Player 1 shoves, Player 2 calls" when really the reverse was true.

Secondary Question: Are both these hands "going all the way" once 300 is in the middle on the flop? By the turn, are both felting both?

Depends, once 68s hits a blank turn the equity drops like a stone and there could be instances to get away from it. He's getting ~2:1 vs. opps range and about 2:1 on the call so it's not terrible but not great, ICM probs says fold but it's close.

It should be AI on the flop though...

[JeffreyGB]

As stated repeatedly above, 86s UTG is a fold. Suited connectors in non-deep stack situations really suck OOP. I actually wrote an article about them that I can link you to if you'd like...

I don't think SB ever has worse than TP here. So on the flop:
Board: 9d 5d 8h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.335% 47.02% 00.31% 13965 93.50 { TT-99, 55, A9s, J9s, T9s, A9o }
Hand 1: 52.665% 52.35% 00.31% 15548 93.50 { 8d6d }

The correct play for the flop has got to be to push, given the dead money that's in the middle. Remove that and it's close, since we're essentially chosing to take a coinflip on level two, which I think everyone would agree is not the best play in an SNG.

On the turn, here's what your equity now looks like:
Board: 9d 5d 8h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.000% 65.00% 00.00% 858 0.00 { TT-99, 55, A9s, J9s, T9s, A9o }
Hand 1: 35.000% 35.00% 00.00% 462 0.00 { 8d6d }

You're not quite getting break-even odds to call here. Further, busting out 65% of the time just blows. I don't know that I like the call here even if it's for 800 rather than 1200. The only way I'm going with it is if I think the rest of the table plays better than I do...

[JeffreyGB]

The only thing I might do different with TT is to raise preflop. This line works too though.

[bigslikk]

Thanks for the responses. Yeah... I play scared with TT. Preflop, we're 50/50 against a mere JQ... The stacks at this point are shallow, but not shallow enough for me to want to flip a coin for them (get in a possible preflop raise war, in which I'd take the tens to the grave).

Basically, I suck playing pocket tens on the flop in a raised pot (i.e. NOT playing them for set value). Okay, an overcard comes. What now? In the SB, I'm going to be OOP too, which blows.

So... I usually play tens passively, for set value (which probably sucks, but I'm extremely donkish with them). As you can see, I lucked out an overpair, and this is not a no set / no bet situation... well, the hand speaks for itself. Just wanted to hear some opinions on it.

Oh yeah, and the river was a six.

[TLR]

Both players played it badly

Player 1: Fold preflop as said by pretty much everyone.
On the flop with FD, mid pair and gutshut str8 draw he should be much agressive. I personally think he should have raised the BB, but I can see a case for seeing the turn for cheap and getting out if you missed, however once SB reraised he should have shoved over.

Player 2 played it badly by limping preflop and getting very agressive postflop in 4 way pot, he should have raised it pre to limit the field and then play it aggressively.
However by limping preflop he has to play the hand more carefully. Check-raising the flop is not good, either lead or check-call and try to hit the set