Should I shove back preflop?

[Rage2100]

SB had been a calling station all the way through so I just checked preflop. Should I be shoving this preflop? I have to push after I hit my J don't I? I wonder about some of these players!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t4640)
SB (t5293)
Hero (t2095)
UTG (t2972)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, K.
2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t375) 2, 9, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t1870 (All-In), SB calls t1870.

[PapalRage]

why would you bet 5 times the size of the pot on the flop when you are in all likelyhood ahead? check is fine pre if the bigstack has shown he likes to gamble but i prefer a pot sized bet on the flop.

[Rage2100]

why would you bet 5 times the size of the pot on the flop when you are in all likelyhood ahead? check is fine pre if the bigstack has shown he likes to gamble but i prefer a pot sized bet on the flop.

I would normally put in about a 500 bet here but because the SB had been a calling station I thought they may call a push. I thought it may look weaker than a 500 bet.

Also, with the stack sizes, putting in a 500 bet would be more than 25% of my chips. Isn't it better to just shove it anyway in this situation?

Edit: Antes were 25 and not 50 so my bet would normally be 400 and not 500. This is still a big chunk of my stack though.

[DetroitHusling101]

why would you bet 5 times the size of the pot on the flop when you are in all likelyhood ahead? check is fine pre if the bigstack has shown he likes to gamble but i prefer a pot sized bet on the flop.

I would normally put in about a 500 bet here but because the SB had been a calling station I thought they may call a push. I thought it may look weaker than a 500 bet.

Also, with the stack sizes, putting in a 500 bet would be more than 25% of my chips. Isn't it better to just shove it anyway in this situation?

The 25% thing doesn't really matter post flop. We are betting for value here. I don't mind overbetting the pot on the flop if he will call big bets with draws but i rather not just shove the flop because were not likely going to get a worse hand to call..

Preflop , if the big stack has shown he likes to gamble with AI's preflop i tend to check. If not i would push.

[badgers]

Seriously though, wtf is that flop push???

If he's a calling station just get three streets of value in, no need to get all worse hands to fold etc. etc.

[Rage2100]

The 25% thing doesn't really matter post flop. We are betting for value here.

If I bet the pot, SB calls, the turn brings an A or Q and the SB comes out betting, what do I do then? I think I'm going on what has been happening lately more than thinking how to get maximum value from the hand.

[badgers]

I think I'm going on what has been happening lately more than thinking how to get maximum value from the hand.

Just because you were sucked out on last time you tried to get value from a hand, doesn't mean you have to make this type of play...

[Rage2100]

Just because you were sucked out on last time you tried to get value from a hand, doesn't mean you have to make this type of play...

Ok, the almost exact same situation arose in the SnG before this one. I don't have the exact hand as it's on my laptop so I'll use this hand and alter it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t4640)
SB (t5293)
Hero (t2095)
UTG (t2972)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, K.
2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t375) 2, 9, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t400, SB calls t400.

Turn: (t1375) Q (2 players)
SB bets t600, Hero ??

[badgers]

Are you asking for strat advise or just trying to prove that you should have shoved on the above hand? Because you shouldn't have...

I most likely fold but I don't have any reads or a buyin or anything...

[Rage2100]

Are you asking for strat advise or just trying to prove that you should have shoved on the above hand? Because you shouldn't have...

I most likely fold but I don't have any reads or a buyin or anything...

I am asking for advice, I'm not saying you're wrong. I know myself it's a bad shove but this seems to keep happening. I make a value bet, the turn brings an overcard and then I don't know what to do when I'm faced with a bet.

Both of these situations are from Stars $3.40s. The SBs in both situations were very loose. I folded the second situation and they showed a Q so at least I'm doing something right.

I can't fold every time an overcard hits though as I would be losing money in the long term. Wouldn't I?

[Xioustic]

I can't fold every time an overcard hits though as I would be losing money in the long term. Wouldn't I?

Hero has KJo, pairs Jack on the flop with undercards and no draws. Hero is worried about overcard on turn/river. Aces and Queens can ruin hero. If opp has Ace or Queen, there are only three remaining in the deck of each. That's 6 potential overcards. With 6 cards known (our two, three on the board, and overcard held in opps) there are 48 cards remaining. 6/48 = 12.5% chance to get overcard on turn, 6/47 = 12.7% chance to get an overcard on river. If opp calls us all the way down he has a 25% chance of hitting one of his overcards. You also have a chance to hit a king, counterfeiting a queen.

So no, you're not losing money in the long run. And yes, fold. The overcard is not coming as often as you think.

Here's the Stove if opp is holding some sort of reasonable Ace (any ace) or Queen (higher than 7) and you both push that board (equivalent of seeing the next two cards):

Board: 2d 9c Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 77.778% 77.71% 00.07% 156942 137.50 { KdJc }
Hand 1: 23.873% 23.81% 00.07% 49495 137.50 { AA, QQ, A2s+, Q7s+, A2o+, KQo }