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Aggression - crossing The Boundary

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  1. #1

    Default Aggression - crossing The Boundary

    When does being aggressive cross over into reckless stupidity?

    As usual, I probably know the answer but woudl like your opinions too.

    We all know the importance of aggression, and I've been reading an excellent thread by Soupie that espouses the main themes: limiting the field, putting pressure on opponents, giviing 2 chances to win as opposed to 1 etc, but quite often you can walk into a sound beating. That's poker. But I'd like to know how to ensure you don't put your poker life on the line when you really shouldn't.

    EX 1:
    Just the other day, down to the final 3 in a freeroll, 1.5 million chips in play of which I had about 820,000 and the villains around 300,000 each. 3 games cost me and I bowed out in 3rd. Both villains had been on the previous table with me, saw me dominate, eliminate and that when I bet big, I had the winning hand. So when I raised pre flop, one always called. Each time I hit the flop and I bet hard (at least a pot sized bet, at most an all in) to chase out any draws. Each time I was called, each time I knew they were drawing and each time they made their hand. When someone calls all their chips with A4 off- and win - it stings. Even in a freeroll.

    EX 2:
    Yesterday, a guy was calling every bet in every hand and miraculously catching the cards to get him out of trouble. I was chip leader at the time, looked down on QA diamonds and raised 6xbb to 350. He reraises to 450 and everyone else folds. I call and the flop is lovely: Qh Jd 2d. So TPTK, nut flush draw and even straight and straight flush draws. I figure he has A high. Hell, even with a pocket pair, I only need fear Ks and As - and even then I have lots of outs. So, 85% wanting to get paid off by this bozo and 15% wanted to end it there and then, worried about allowing him to make his hand (a la the final table the night before) I pushed. he called and I was half right. he has an ace. He also has the other. And unlike his good self, I don't spike one of the many cards that would have seen me suck out.

    EX 3:
    As I have been writing this, down to final 15, with a maniac going all in with nothing and as such his stack is fluctuating wildly. He has 110,000 and I have 65,000. he has also been truthfully anouncing his hands and told me he had 82. I am dealt AJ diamonds, blinds are 3,000/6.000 and I raise to 15,000. All fold, he calls, flop comes K910 raindow. I push, he calls with his 82 and spikes a 2 on the turn.

    So at this point, "it's a freeroll full of donks, whaddaya expect?" is on many people's lips yet the question is, had my play in these 3 events been acceptable and unlucky or just plain bad? Looking back, I can't fault my play against the maniac in EX 2 - but am I right? And though it was me who put my chips in the firing line at the final table the previous night, I get the impression that as they were happy to bet all their chips after the flop with nothing but high cards and draws, that they'd call any smaller bet I could make - ergo I was destined to lose those hands regardless.

    And playing this way is what took me to the final table and deep into these events and success at SNGs. Sometimes you can be unlucky and your KK hits AA but sometimes I wonder if I get carried away and truly am too reckless. Eg: If I have QQ or KK, bet large and get called, I am 95% of the time going to push as long as I don't see aces and 3 to the flush or straight. Maybe 'cause I've been stung by someone catching their ace or set after the flop. Maybe 'cause it's reckless, I dunno. But I give little consideration to whether they have a higher hand as with any of these 3, I'll push 'til the cows come home.

    Don't get me wrong, I try to play tight and in position, and will often fold good looking hands even when there's a good chance these guys are re re raising with K3 off. However, I wonder if it's me being overtly aggressive or just bad luck when bozos call with trash. When they do, I know they are at fault but am I too by giving him 2, or less often, 5 free cards?

    And because I am playing with numptys, it's very hard to evaluate just what they have. After all, these guys will bet off 98% of their chips on each street only to fold on the river. So when the flop comes after a 4xbb raise, I hold JJ, the flop comes 966 and Villain bets large, he could be playing AA as much as K10, 55 or even 36. As such, I am pushing in the dark a lot.

    Overall, I think it's more bad luck than bad management (though I could be wrong) as I am repeatedly negotiating the field, being amongst the chip lead at any table I join and by winning 50% of SNGs I enter. But we all have leaks and is this one of them? And even if I am utilsing good management most of the time, I'd rather it be 90% than 65%.

    Of note is that my cash game doesn't fare half as well. And again, I question the level of aggression I show. Winning 10 pots and $50 this way is of small consolation when it all goes to someone else - whether they called with trash or rockets.

    Anyhoo, I'd love to hear your thoughts. And I know it's only freeroll, but any MTT experience is better than none


    Thx
  2. #2
    The "it's only a freeroll" arguement doesnt cut it for me anyway, once you have invested 2 to 3 hours in building a stack the buyin is irrelevant IMO
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  3. #3
    chardrian's Avatar
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    Wow, you have long posts.

    It sounds to me like you are just getting frustrated with bad beats/running into big hands late in tourneys.

    The thing with MTTs is that you need to play lots and lots and lots and .... LOTS of them. Your goal is to win, followed by getting top three, followed by making the final table, followed by making the money. And you only make that last goal (getting ITM) 15-20% of the time. But really making the money just keeps you afloat, the bankroll boost only comes from making top three. And that percentage varies greatly depending on how good you are, how many people are in your tourney, and how good your opponents are. But somewhere around 1-3% of getting the top three is usually pretty good. So MTTs are for masochists. It isn't like cash games where you expect to have a winning session 50% + of the time. Which means that the bad beats are even more frustrating, and the "why can't I ever run like that?" will be more inviting to believe. But if you have the mental fortitude to grind through all the losing sessions, the rewards are also out of this world. And it's those rewards which keep me coming back for more and more punishment.
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  4. #4
    Hi Cahrd,

    Nah, I am fine. No frustration. I've been surprising myself with how well I've been doing actually. This topic could be placed anywehere; MTT, SNG, BC but I chose here as my examples were all MTT based.

    It's just a legit question about the fine line between agression and reckless abandon,

    Thx for the info though. Did I read this right - a pretty good score is finishing in the top 3 1-3% of the time?

    Whilst on this topic, I have another question. Up to now, I've played $5 & $10 SNGs. I thought to win good would cost the same if not more but have been pleasantly surprised by some $1 - $2 MTTs paying up to $750. I entered last night and though the competition was harder than the freerolls, it didn't pose too many problems and I smoothly got to 21st before having my Ks full of 3s full house cracked by quad 3s. I'l be back!

    My question is, in general, and in terms of cashing, would you reccommend paying $10 for 2 SNGs - paying out $10 - $25 each, or 10 $1 MTTs where even just one cash can overwhelm any SNG payout?

    TBH, for $2, I'll gladly pay just for the experience but getting some feedback would be great.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder

    My question is, in general, and in terms of cashing, would you reccommend paying $10 for 2 SNGs - paying out $10 - $25 each, or 10 $1 MTTs where even just one cash can overwhelm any SNG payout?
    How big are the fields for each? Single table SNGs? The smaller buy-in MTTs get huge fields and tend to be crap shoots. The smaller the field, the more often you should money and final table if you are a skilled player.
  6. #6
    Hi Sprayed,

    The freerolls (crapshoots) are either 500 or 1000 and I do pretty well. Which is amazing considering the randomness of it all.

    The $2 tourney I entered last night - top 10 paid, 1st place: $750 - had just 112 runners (though it could hold up to 300).

    And all was going well until.... I had KK, raised 5xbb. One caller. Flop came 3K3. He went all in, I called and he flipped over 33. My "woo hoo!" sensation was quickly replaced by "I want to be sick!"

    If these MTTs were $20+, I'd leave well enough alone but hey, I have $2 to spare so.....
  7. #7
    chardrian's Avatar
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    If you only have $10 I would think that playing 2 $5 SNGs or 10 $1 MTTs would both be very bad in terms of bankroll management - but I am definitely not the person to ask for advice when it comes to that topic.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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  8. #8
    Chard,

    I don't have only $10. It was just a simple example/question. It can be reworded to "$10 is well within your BR, would you play 10 MTTs or 2 SNGs"?
  9. #9
    chardrian's Avatar
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    I would play MTTs, cuz that's how I roll.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  10. #10
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    The $2 tourney I entered last night - top 10 paid, 1st place: $750 - had just 112 runners (though it could hold up to 300).

    Where was this tourney? That's one hell of an overlay - I'd like to give it a go.
  11. #11
    $1500 Guaranteed on Titan.

    Another ran and the top prize was $450. Maybe it changes due to the number of entrants?

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