River spot.

[Galapogos]

Both villain and I are running tagish. He's a regular. No real history, we 3-bet each other a little bit more than other players but nothing too huge. He runs about 21/16/3. I'm pretty much the same.


TEXAS_HOLDEM, NO_LIMIT, P4-54698142-559
played at "Salzburg" for USD RM from 2007-11-26 16:13 until 2007-11-26 16:14

Seat 2: .AngryBeaver ($46.25 in chips)
Seat 4: punchline_x ($50.30 in chips)
Seat 7: 14253647 ($86.80 in chips)
Seat 8: redcards1 ($71.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Galapogos [ A,9 ] ($74.20 in chips)

Antes/Blinds
.AngryBeaver posts blind ($0.25), punchline_x posts blind ($0.50).

Pre-Flop
14253647 bets $2, redcards1 folds, Galapogos calls $2, .AngryBeaver folds, punchline_x folds.

Flop [board cards: J,Q,2 ]
14253647 bets $3, Galapogos calls $3.

Turn [board cards: J,Q,2,K ]
14253647 checks, Galapogos bets $7, 14253647 calls $7.

River [board cards: J,Q,2,K,2 ]
14253647 checks, Galapogos bets $17, 14253647 bets $74.80 and is all-in, Galapogos....?

Edited to fix the river card.

[Ash256]

Sick, looks like a fairly clear fold.

Whether I'm able to press the fold button there is another matter.

[silu73]

If he has any brain he will know that you have at least a straight or a flush so I can only see myself folding.

[JeffreyGB]

A better question is why you only called on the flop. Against any hands other than AQ/AJ/QQ/JJ/22/QJ, you have enough equity to get all-in. Add in some FE and the added ability to build a bigger pot for when you make your hand, a raise seems best to me.

[bigspenda73]

I def. raise the flop and would not worry about getting the money in on one street.

As played I'd have trouble getting my hand off the fold button. I rarely see the river c/r as a bluff, in fact, I don't think I ever have. Sick thing is does he really let JJ-KK go c/c on the turn? That's hard for me to believe really.

[pankfish]

Just for my notes, are you people folding the nut flush to a river shove every time the board pairs?

TIA

[bigspenda73]

after a c/r from a passive opponent, I'd say I can fold it a lot. I mean, the only other flush in his range is a straight flush, so you have to ask yourself if he's capable of bluffing here really. If he isn't, which I don't feel most players at these levels are capable of pulling off river c/r bluffs then his range is waited towards JJ-KK that was spooked by the turn card.

In a vacuum a lot of us will say fold, but in the heat of the moment I'd say none of us would.

[pankfish]

after a c/r from a passive opponent, I'd say I can fold it a lot. I mean, the only other flush in his range is a straight flush, so you have to ask yourself if he's capable of bluffing here really. If he isn't, which I don't feel most players at these levels are capable of pulling off river c/r bluffs then his range is waited towards JJ-KK that was spooked by the turn card.

In a vacuum a lot of us will say fold, but in the heat of the moment I'd say none of us would.

There is no way he has the straight flush here. You have the Ace and the 9 in your hand. I'm no saying your are wrong. A passive player dealt AA could play this way, no? Why would a lower flush not bet here? Can passive players really be that passive?

[bigspenda73]

oops yea, 9hTh is not possible.

He's a TAGG opening in the HJ, I don't put small suited connectors in his range. FWIW all we beat is AA here. Also, small flushes shouldnt c/c the turn and let a bad card peel.

[JeffreyGB]

In a vacuum a lot of us will say fold, but in the heat of the moment I'd say none of us would.

I might...but I think my worst leak is that I fold too much.

[bigspenda73]

In a vacuum a lot of us will say fold, but in the heat of the moment I'd say none of us would.

I might...but I think my worst leak is that I fold too much.

folding too much is a leak in limit

[Ash256]

after a c/r from a passive opponent, I'd say I can fold it a lot. I mean, the only other flush in his range is a straight flush, so you have to ask yourself if he's capable of bluffing here really. If he isn't, which I don't feel most players at these levels are capable of pulling off river c/r bluffs then his range is waited towards JJ-KK that was spooked by the turn card.

In a vacuum a lot of us will say fold, but in the heat of the moment I'd say none of us would.

A passive player dealt AA could play this way, no? Why would a lower flush not bet here? Can passive players really be that passive?

Why would AA CRAI on the river? That'd pretty much be a bluff.


pankfish, of course we're not, we don't think of poker in terms of "in this situation we do this", we look at his line, estimate his range and our equity (likelyhood of winning) vs. that range. Right now, IMO, our equity vs. his range sucks.


There are only two things that could lean me towards a call:-

- Opponent thinks TPTK is the nuts no matter what
- Opponent is capable of bluffing with made hands


The first is unlikely due to OP's description, and pretty much no-one at 50NL is capable of the second.



I like Jeffrey's line.

Spenda, I think it's more than possible for him to let it go c/c with a set, I don't trust our opponent to be some robotic 2+2 TAG, he could so easily be thinking:

"God I run so bad, I KNOW he's got those hearts, fucking rigged!"

[IowaSkinsFan]

I don't get why you insist on not stacking off with the nut flush all the time!

Look guys, his line makes no sense for anything, even a boat, so fist pump and call.
Seriously, get up pump your fist, give your wife a high five and tell her you're taking her out to her favorite restaurant with the $75 you just made.

[Genitruc]

he played it really well now fold

[Genitruc]

lol @ isf saying his line makes no sense!

[Fnord]

lol @ isf saying his line makes no sense!

This could very well be true. ISF probably plays games where people aren't too chicken shit to bet this turn without a flush (or bluff.)

[Halv]

I fold it preflop alot. Both raise and call on the flop seems okay, I think I'm leaning towards just calling because we are slightly deep. I could theoretically find a fold to the river c/r, but in real life he's gonna have to show me the boat. We need to win, what, 30% of the time to break even? I think river decision is fairly close and thus it's not of huge importance.

also wtf at people calling 21/16/3 passive these days?

[griffey24]

also wtf at people calling 21/16/3 passive these days?

lol I made this same comment in the other thread about people even calling AF of 2.5 passive..... ugh

This seems reasonable to me:

passive (AF <=2ish) -> avg/moderate aggression (2-3.5ish) -> aggressive ( AF> 3.5ish)

[iolzizlyi]

preflop: "yay i got jj/qq/kk!"
flop: "omg i hit my set/have an overpair. lemme bet against the FD."
turn: "damn flush i'll just c/c to see river"
river: "hell yeah i hit my boat. i'm all in"

[Ash256]

preflop: "yay i got jj/qq/kk!"
flop: "omg i hit my set/have an overpair. lemme bet against the FD."
turn: "damn flush i'll just c/c to see river"
river: "hell yeah i hit my boat. i'm all in"

Exactly.

I don't think we can rely on villain to be thinking at all competently on the first level, which is why I think his line makes sense.

[Triple Optics]

I fold it preflop alot.

With your read I fold preflop too.

His turn check doesnt make much sense to me at all. If he's got a set why would he check/call the turn? Op said that this guy is a regular tag. WIth his postflop aggression I don't see him getting immediately scared of a third heart just because hero smooth calls on the flop, hero's hand could include alot there. Making assumptions based on the limit youre playing rather than the read you've acquired is generally not a good idea.

Because of his weird turn line I'd probably call the river check raise, which will also give you some information for the future.

[Ash256]

Results? I think you wanted to fold but couldn't and got shown QQ/JJ

[Genitruc]

fnord I agree that "normal" villains at nl400 6 max on stars don't check-call a set on this turn, but it's gotta be kind of important to think on the level of the people playing the game when posting a reply and posting "no one ever plays a set this way" doesn't really help

[Galapogos]

Results:

I was actually villain. I thought it was a pretty cool bluff but I guess not since more people than I thought are advocating call.

I had KQ and didn't want to bet the turn because I don't think this guy's calling the flop without much else. He doesn't make loose call downs and he chases draws passively. Plus the K completed a gutshot. I figured I'd call and see what he did on the river. The board paired and I thought it would be a good idea to rep the FH since he didn't have one. I suck at pokering I guess.

[Fnord]

I don't think I've ever tried to blow someone off a flush.

[Genitruc]

this is a very sick play

nh

2 bad you weren't playing me

[griffey24]

Results:

I was actually villain. I thought it was a pretty cool bluff but I guess not since more people than I thought are advocating call.

I had KQ and didn't want to bet the turn because I don't think this guy's calling the flop without much else. He doesn't make loose call downs and he chases draws passively. Plus the K completed a gutshot. I figured I'd call and see what he did on the river. The board paired and I thought it would be a good idea to rep the FH since he didn't have one. I suck at pokering I guess.

Why not just c/c.. its not like your hand doesn't have showdown value. You have top two! This would make more sense if you had AIR

[Ash256]

Results:

I was actually villain. I thought it was a pretty cool bluff but I guess not since more people than I thought are advocating call.

I had KQ and didn't want to bet the turn because I don't think this guy's calling the flop without much else. He doesn't make loose call downs and he chases draws passively. Plus the K completed a gutshot. I figured I'd call and see what he did on the river. The board paired and I thought it would be a good idea to rep the FH since he didn't have one. I suck at pokering I guess.

You sick *%&%$£^*

Problem is that this is 50NL, it's more probable that he couldn't fold a flush than that he put you on air and made a sick call.

[bigspenda73]

how quick did he call?

[gabe]

people dont check sets on that turn much anyway

[Galapogos]

how quick did he call?

SUPER fast. I thought it deserved at least some thought from him.

Griffey, I didn't flat call the river, I convert my hands myself and just noticed I fucked up. The river was actually the 2.

[griffey24]

how quick did he call?

SUPER fast. I thought it deserved at least some thought from him.

Griffey, I didn't flat call the river, I convert my hands myself and just noticed I fucked up. The river was actually the 2.

HAHA.. ok well that river changes the value of your hand a LOT. Why not just bluff lead the river, caused based on the turn it seems like you could be calling to see another heart?

[Galapogos]

how quick did he call?

SUPER fast. I thought it deserved at least some thought from him.

Griffey, I didn't flat call the river, I convert my hands myself and just noticed I fucked up. The river was actually the 2.

HAHA.. ok well that river changes the value of your hand a LOT. Why not just bluff lead the river, caused based on the turn it seems like you could be calling to see another heart?

I thought about it, but then I got ambitious/spewy and felt like trying to bluff out the nut flush too And the only way I had a chance to do that was the c/r.