VPIP at shorthanded?

[didy]

Few thoughts about VPIP
First definition: VPIP = Voluntarily put money into flop. ( flop % - checking on Big Blind )
Is this correct?
1. Do u calculate hand when for example UTG player call 1bb, BB bet all in and then UTG fold? ( UTG voluntarily bet 1bb, but didn t see flop?? )

2. Is it important to take separate VPIP regarding number of players sitting at table.
For example - we have sample of 2000 hands for player X (VPIP.PFR.FR ) 30.25.4 for 5 and 6 players at table, and 1000 hands for player X 45.25.5,5 for only 3 or 4 players sitting at table.
Do you join those stats or look at them separately?

[kettleofish]

Your definition is wrong. VPIP is Voluntarily Put In Pot, not flop, so in your example UTG would indeed have VPIP.

As for your second point, i don't think it makes much difference, but id certainly don't split them up. Unless the sample size you have of player X playing shorthanded (i.e. 3, 4handed) was SIGNIFICANTLY higher than you had for him playing a full table. Obv in this scenario the natural loosening up he should/may be doing when 3-handed might make you look at his stats and think 'WTF 45/20/5, donk, lets raise i have TPNK!!!'.

BUT, as has been pointed out in your other thread, these stats really really really reallllllly are just a guideline as to your opps hand ranges PF, don't make all your decisions based on them.

[Chopper]

1...got solved.

2... i dont separate them. dont care at my stakes. but, i think, if you have gone to the trouble, you should make a note of them. most players "loosen up" the shorter a table gets. from 6 down to 5, i dont pay much attention. but, from full ring to 6max, i do.

if you are going to all the trouble of looking that closely, get something out of it. make your personal notes, and maybe it will help. at 25NL, there are still so many idiots, i dont think it gives you enough of an edge to take all the time.

[biondino]

I get in trouble sometimes 3 or 4 handed when I raise with, say, A8 but then don't know what to do when called. Obviously their calling ranges will/should also have loosened up, and my whol game is built around forcing players to fold and escaping when they don't.

[Chopper]

Obviously their calling ranges will/should also have loosened up...

i dont necessarily agree. not specifically with biondino, but in general.

most players, imo, do NOT loosen up. and, there in lies an opportunity to attack. a full ring player is a full ring player no matter if the table is 7 handed or 10. he doesnt know how to "shift gears." he just keeps waiting for premiums while the blinds, and you hopefully, eat him alive.

if you "open up" and start raising A8o against a typical fr player because your table went short...you will get killed by him, unless you can play it very effectively post flop.

[jackvance]

if you "open up" and start raising A8o against a typical fr player because your table went short...you will get killed by him, unless you can play it very effectively post flop.

Less people at the table means playing more hands becomes the optimum strategy.. so you won't get killed if you do just that. On the contrary, it's the best thing to do..

[Chopper]

if you "open up" and start raising A8o against a typical fr player because your table went short...you will get killed by him, unless you can play it very effectively post flop.

Less people at the table means playing more hands becomes the optimum strategy.. so you won't get killed if you do just that. On the contrary, it's the best thing to do..

i knew i would get this response. and, i understand and you are correct. but, at donkstakes, you are better off, imo, playing the same or leaving the table. these players dont know how to adjust, and you just put yourself in difficult spot after difficult spot.

[sauce123]

aim for 100 settle for 50

[didy]

Ok then, lets talk about hand range...if we know that player X 50/12
and player Y 40/8
What hands they rr?

[Chopper]

50 = 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,
76s,65s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T7o+,98o

12% =77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 %= 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+, 87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

8 = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+


this is it, roughly. you may need to adjust for NL games. these are pstove's limit ranges.

[didy]

50 = 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,
76s,65s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T7o+,98o

12% =77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 %= 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+, 87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

8 = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+


this is it, roughly. you may need to adjust for NL games. these are pstove's limit ranges.

But this is incorrect...because everybody has his own range...maybe player X PFR 8%, but this (% represent other hands, AJs+, AQo, KQs and 44+ ) and than u have wrong calculations, especially for flop [2s5s6c]

[didy]

One more quest...for full ring, VPIP should be around 17-20%, what is ideal VPIP/ PFR for 6 or 5 handed table?

Everybody will say, it depends on players, but if you are playing first time against unknown opponents how would u play, about 25/20 ?

[Chopper]

50 = 33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,
76s,65s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T7o+,98o

12% =77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 %= 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+, 87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

8 = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+


this is it, roughly. you may need to adjust for NL games. these are pstove's limit ranges.

But this is incorrect...because everybody has his own range...maybe player X PFR 8%, but this (% represent other hands, AJs+, AQo, KQs and 44+ ) and than u have wrong calculations, especially for flop [2s5s6c]

then why ask the question, if you wont accept answers? /didy

[sauce123]

didy- the reason ppl give u shit for making these kinds of threads is because there r such easy and accessible tools for u to answer them youself: pokerstove.

so basically people will just conclude u r lazy.

[biondino]

A safe vp/pfr at a 6max NL table, where you are playing tight but not losing too much value, is about 20/14 I reckon.

at donkstakes, you are better off, imo, playing the same or leaving the table. these players dont know how to adjust, and you just put yourself in difficult spot after difficult spot.

Except you're not, most of the time. Of course, if you have A8 and a tight layer who hasn't adjusted calls or raises your PFR, you're very likely behind.

But you're not looking at the pluses, which are:

1) you will steal a lot of blinds and limps pre-flop
2) because they are only playing monsters, you can easily fold where applicable
3) because they are only playing monsters, you can stack them with 2 pair and better hands which you will be getting, often well-disguised, with the more varied hands you're able to play

So while your point is correct, the way you're applying it to pwning nitty players who don't adjust is extremely blinkered.

[biondino]

Also, surely this is logical - if THEY don't know how to adjust, and YOU do, then leaving the table would be madness!!

[jackvance]

I think it's ok if your VPIP is 15-30 and PFR atleast half your VPIP.