AKo 17bb deep($3 stars)

[snowboard_31]

PokerStars Game #14083552284: Tournament #71071082, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/12/25 - 01:48:14 (ET)
Table '71071082 176' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: BDDFC1308 (2400 in chips)
Seat 2: kapinator (3805 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: royal_tee (1660 in chips)
Seat 4: Glowshield (1260 in chips)
Seat 5: HERO (1775 in chips)
Seat 6: Rhocky2u (5330 in chips)
Seat 7: akoz82 (1540 in chips)
Seat 8: jetpride101 (710 in chips)
Seat 9: B0XH3AD (5310 in chips)
B0XH3AD: posts small blind 50
BDDFC1308: posts big blind 100

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Kd Ah]
kapinator: folds
royal_tee: folds
Glowshield: folds
HERO: raises 200 to 300
Rhocky2u: calls 300
akoz82: folds
jetpride101: folds
B0XH3AD: folds
BDDFC1308: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [4d Js 9h] -2 callers
BDDFC1308: checks
HERO: bets 700
Rhocky2u: calls 700
BDDFC1308: folds
*** TURN *** [4d Js 9h] [7h] -1 caller
HERO: .....

Ive got 700 left and the pot is around 2300, maybe 2 live outs but its possible he spiked his ace kicker and im reverse dominated. With any pair hed be getting fairly good odds to call, and the board is fairly drawy.

Im thinkin c/f and move on, if i can see a free card thatd be cool.

HERO: check
RHocky2u: All In 2000

Auto fold?

[chardrian]

check flop.

If it was only one opp, I like your lead, against 2, this is either a standard check/fold flop or a check/reraise all-in if you have a read that rhock will c-bet everytime.

[snowboard_31]

oooooooook, i thought the lead was ok but against 2 its a leak?

And then another hand, Short Stack blind play rigth before the bubble:

PokerStars Game #14084041814: Tournament #71071082, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/12/25 - 02:35:36 (ET)
Table '71071082 176' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: BDDFC1308 (2170 in chips)
Seat 2: CoolRoad (14074 in chips)
Seat 3: Kenseven13 (5400 in chips)
Seat 4: $killet (3740 in chips)
Seat 5: HERO (1700 in chips)
Seat 6: Rhocky2u (2816 in chips)
Seat 7: akoz82 (1565 in chips)
Seat 8: nanaryu (10260 in chips)
Seat 9: HeavyKev420 (2276 in chips)
$killet: posts small blind 100
HERO: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [5c Ac]
Rhocky2u: folds
akoz82: folds
nanaryu: folds
HeavyKev420: folds
BDDFC1308: folds
CoolRoad: raises 400 to 600
Kenseven13: folds
$killet: folds
HERO: raises 1100 to 1700 and is all-in

The 2 big stacks werre loosening rigth up and stealing every hand, only getting looked up by pock aces and kings. Hows this line for a short stack preflop against a steal a high percentage of the time.

[Sprayed]

Hand one, if you are still in the rebuy period I would just shove pre if the table has been loose. You are bound to get a call by a weak donky. Or just raise more than 3xbb.

Hand two, you have no FE. He's not folding here. You should be looking to open push not get your chips in with a weak ace. Even though he's raising a lot doesn't mean that he doesn't have a big hand. He has to know that he would have to call your shove, so therefore he should have a stronger hand than normal.

Also, how is this deep when we are talking 50/100 and 100/200?

[donkbee]

I think hand 2 is fine if the villain's been loosening up with his raises. Hero probably has the best hand here so it's fine if he has no FE.

[chardrian]

this game is all about ranges. what ranges can you put your opp's on that first hand? How likely is it that both of them called pre with unpaired hands AND both missed that flop?

I'll go ahead and answer - not very likely. Add to that the fact that you have approx 15x BB left if you have to check/fold here but will only have 8xBB if you bet/fold and I like the lead about as much as I like (you can fill in whatever disgusting blank works best for you). If you do lead this flop - I think you have to push.

Hand 2 looks standard - just realize that a good player should be calling with any two here.

[donkbee]

sprayed posted before I had a chance to post so I had to go and edit my post and then chardrian posted before I had finished editing. this forum is rigged.

[KillThatInfidel]

Hand 1 = I really dislike the bet on the flop. I think you need to c/f the flop. As played you need to slide the river. (also call it i guess). All in all i think you played this hand exceptionally poorly.
Hand 2 = I do not really like this here. A stop and go is definitly the play here.

[snowboard_31]

Hand 1- not a rebuy tourny, "deep" meaning how large my stack

hand 2- I wasent really looking for fold equity, I thought I was ahead of his range and leading at that point. After reviewing and someone else telling me a stop and go could have been much better (after knowing his hand and the results already)

After hearing everyones input and looking it over Im starting to understand why the line I took with AK was so poor. I think i just instintively cbet it, without thinking how big my stack was at the time (stupid stupid).

[Sprayed]

17bb stacks isn't very deep. Closer to 100bb stacks and above is deep.

[elipsesjeff]

i dont think he was making the statement that 17 bb was deep, he was just saying he had 17 bb.

I agree with chardrian in everything he said in hand 1; if you're going to cbet then its a shove. You should know what to do here before the flop even comes.

Hand 2: If you think you're ahead of his range and he has to call you with any two, then I definately don't mind it. He'll call with KQ and you split with a lot smaller Ax that dominate you that you have do have a decent amount of equity against any hand that dominates you. I think a stop n go is the worst option.

[KillThatInfidel]

I really think you are wrong. A stop n go seems like the best option to me. You have no fold equity and A5 is almost very going to be more than 55/45. On a stop n go, you have plenty of fold equity, and even if your opponent outdrew you on the flop, it really would not make a difference. But you could make him fold a hand that did not hit, that could on later streets.

[elipsesjeff]

I really think you are wrong. A stop n go seems like the best option to me. You have no fold equity and A5 is almost very going to be more than 55/45. On a stop n go, you have plenty of fold equity, and even if your opponent outdrew you on the flop, it really would not make a difference. But you could make him fold a hand that did not hit, that could on later streets.

At 5m we really want to double up or go home. Going from 1700 chips to 2400 compared to 3600 chips is a big difference. If I lose here I really don't care.

The problem with the stop and go is that he'll call you on the flop only when he hits, when you want him to call you when he misses if you were ahead preflop. Fancy play syndrome will bust you out of too many tournaments this early when really playing standard will take you much farther.

[chardrian]

Hand 2 - meh.

The only thing that maybe needs to be reiterated is that the stop'n'go does not actually give you more fold equity. It's a play designed to give the illusion of fold equity - good players will see it just as that and call any flop push there just as they should call preflop.

[badgers]

The only thing that maybe needs to be reiterated is that the stop'n'go does not actually give you more fold equity. It's a play designed to give the illusion of fold equity - good players will see it just as that and call any flop push there just as they should call preflop.

OK so I'm confused... I get that good players might understand that a player is shoving the flop with 100% of his range. But imo that does not mean that he should call 100% when he would have called preflop, as we now have more information.

Let's say that we raise 3x with 77 from LP, the BB, who you know prefers Stopngos when he has the right stacksize, calls then shoves a QKA flop for potsize. You put his range at ~35%, or 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9 o+,T9o.

77 has 22% equity here, even against this fairly wide range, making this a very easy fold. Just because we would have called preflop doesn't mean we have to call now. We have more information now than we did preflop, you can't justify a terrible call on the flop by saying we would have called a shove preflop.

So, the reason a SnG works is because when we cannot be dominated so easily preflop as on the flop - ie. getting 2:1 preflop means you are basically priced in to call with any 2 unless villain has a very narrow range. On the flop however, your equity could be as little as 22% against such a wide range as 35% as I have shown. I believe that ignoring the flop because we would have called preflop cannot justify a poor decision.

The other issue I take against this post is that you say a SnG only gives the illusion of FE because good players call with 100% of their range. Even if this is the case, which I don't believe it is, bad players will still fold a lot of their range on a missed flop, though poor players may not have realised they have to call 100% of their opening range preflop anyway... The SnG is designed to create more FE by putting your range ahead of villain post-flop. It does not create an "illusion" of FE, it does in fact create FE as long as it is used correctly.

[badgers]

Wait wait there's more!

I've just realised that this all links into ISFs blog post and the discussion on the HS forum.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/blogs/w...cket-pairs-126

If you have a read that opp likes to Stop'n'Go instead of shove over then we should take away some paired hands from our range since they lose so much equity on a missed flop. ie. we are often drawing to 2 outs when they have hit

I think that is the correct way to combat someone who likes to SnG when the stack sizes are correct. Open more unpaired hands as we are more likely to have more outs when opp has hit and shoves and we have missed.

[chardrian]

Ok - I'll admit there are certain situations where you are going to fold postflop where you would have called pre.

But I stand by the assertion that the stop n' go is a play designed to give you the illusion of FE.

And I think your example sucks as it is an outlier. And I disagree that paired hands lose equity on missed flops. They only lose equity when your opp actually hits the flop which is only going to happen 1/3 of the time (and then only if he has 2 overs). So actually 2/3 of the time they gain equity.

With 77, against a wide range (i.e. an obvious stop'n'go) I am calling almost any flop push even if I miss.

[badgers]

Meh, OK. I think we are disagreeing on the terminology as far as "illusion of FE" is concerned. To me the term is for example, is you std raise with 11bbs with a hand like AA instead of pushing because you want to encourage resteals ie. you give your opp the illusion of FE. A stop and go creates more FE postflop than pre, there is no illusion.

I think I have misused ISFs blog post because that is about opps calling ranges. When they stop'n'go, their range is much wider than hands that have hit, so what I wrote in my second post is completely wrong, ignore it please