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Poker Forum › Full Ring NL Hold'em ›

25NL: Too aggressive vs shortstack?

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  1. 01-02-2008 11:35 PM #1
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    Default 25NL: Too aggressive vs shortstack?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

    MP2 ($30.50)
    CO ($36.90)
    Button ($9.65)
    Hero ($34.90)
    BB ($25)
    UTG ($20.50)
    MP1 ($18.20)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
    1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button raises to $1, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Button calls $3.

    Flop: ($8.50) , , (2 players)
    Hero bets $10, Button calls $5.65 (All-In).

    Turn: ($19.80) (2 players, 1 all-in)

    River: ($19.80) (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Final Pot: $19.80

    Shortie was unknown. Usually with unknowns I assume TAG until they give me a good reason to assume otherwise. Should I be assuming loose for shorties instead and slowing down on missed flops?
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  2. 01-03-2008 10:36 AM #2
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    when he calls your 3bet, you have no FE left. he is short, he isnt folding his hand on a low flop. and, its likely a pp.

    no, you shouldnt be assuming shorties are ALL loose. but, you should be slowing down against them on missed flops.

    they call tight and push light.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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  3. 01-03-2008 11:18 AM #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    when he calls your 3bet, you have no FE left.
    I think that's what I needed to hear.

    D'u think the 3bet was -EV OOP vs a tight shortie OR a loose shortie?
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  4. 01-03-2008 11:47 AM #4
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    neither. i think the flop push was -EV.

    i think you must be 3betting AK against shorties. both kinds. hell, shove it pf, if you can against them.

    short stacks are playing a pf and flop game. and, usually, they suck at it, too. they play too many draws for their strategy. the flop you picked had no draw on it, so the only hands calling beat you. i dont think short stacks would even continue to a push w/ KQ, AT+ here. you could have received much better information with a 2/3 pot bet on the flop. you would still fold the junk, and would be raised by most pp's allowing you to fold off.

    the "looser" the shorty, the more inclined i am to push pre. but, i am rarely, if ever, open shoving this flop. i may cbet it small, but i am not playing for stacks.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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  5. 01-03-2008 11:56 AM #5
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    Shortie's stack was 2/3rds of the pot on flop so if I was c-betting I was pushing him.

    Check/fold flop I guess...
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  6. 01-03-2008 11:59 AM #6
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    Thats just terrible advice chopper.

    Hero played it fine.
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  7. 01-03-2008 12:13 PM #7
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    i'll take the "high road" here and ignore mentioning all your frustrated posts about "shorting" in spots just like these.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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  8. 01-03-2008 12:29 PM #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    i'll take the "high road" here and ignore mentioning all your frustrated posts about "shorting" in spots just like these.
    euphoricism is right, Hero played it fine post-flop.

    Pre-flop I wouldn't 3-bet as much in this particular situation so that we set up more FE on the flop. I'd prefer for the effective stack sizes to be around the same size as the pot.
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  9. 01-03-2008 12:39 PM #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer
    Shortie's stack was 2/3rds of the pot on flop so if I was c-betting I was pushing him.

    Check/fold flop I guess...
    i shouldnt have implied i was folding. thats not the case, you cant fold here. but, to extract any value out of this hand, you need to let HIM do the pushing, and hope you spike a "good" A or K to take the pot away.

    his pp's arent folding here. but, if YOU do the pushing, you could drive off AT+, KQ, QJ...stuff that you beat that may bluff at you. hell, you may even minbet this flop to see if he raises you. either way, you are going to showdown with this. you just dont want to drive off weaker A's and K's.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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  10. 01-03-2008 12:40 PM #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    they call tight and push light.
    I think you both might be missing Chopper's point. He is basically saying anything that calls your push has you beat, but worse hands may push if you c/c.
    This would trap more money in the pot when ahead, and it's not like we mind seeing a free card here. I agree with him. I think an open push is OK, but a c/c is better.

    I wouldn't 3bet this situation if we can get the SS all in anyway post flop. With the limper, an smaller isolation raise($3) as proposed by spoonitnow is probably best.

    **EDIT** Nevermind he came back and posted a reply before me.
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  11. 01-03-2008 02:22 PM #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow
    Pre-flop I wouldn't 3-bet as much in this particular situation so that we set up more FE on the flop. I'd prefer for the effective stack sizes to be around the same size as the pot.
    That's interesting...more food for thought. I was just thinking: "OOP? 3-ball!"
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