Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,292,000 Posts!
Poker ForumTournament Poker

Never fold AA preflop right?

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1

    Default Never fold AA preflop right?

    The corect play in this situation is to call right. If I fold the small stack either double or is gone, leaving me about where I am at. Worse case is I call and the small stack wins the hand and the large stack wins the side pot, putting me out in third. Best case they hold up and I have a nice chip lead. The more I considered it the more I wonderif this is a + or - EV play. I am not very good with ICM, maybe someone could break it down.


    PokerStars Game #14307298702: Tournament #72595431, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/01/03 - 23:40:20 (ET)
    Table '72595431 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 2: BlkViper19 (4917 in chips)
    Seat 3: dynoalot (7506 in chips)
    Seat 5: provvinxrom (1077 in chips)
    BlkViper19: posts the ante 25
    dynoalot: posts the ante 25
    provvinxrom: posts the ante 25
    provvinxrom: posts small blind 200
    BlkViper19: posts big blind 400
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to BlkViper19 [As Ah]
    dynoalot: raises 7081 to 7481 and is all-in
    provvinxrom: calls 852 and is all-in
    BlkViper19: ?????
  2. #2
    Never ever ever ever fold here, this is a fantastic way to very likely knock out the short stack and go into the HU battle with a massive chip lead.
  3. #3
    bjsaust's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    6,347
    Location
    Ballarat, Australia
    The only way I would fold this is if I got so carried away leaping around the room throwing my arms up in the air and shouting out loud my thanks to the poker gods, that I timed out and it auto-folded.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  4. #4
    Look at it this way: If you don't call here, what hand would it take for you to call?
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bjsaust
    The only way I would fold this is if I got so carried away leaping around the room throwing my arms up in the air and shouting out loud my thanks to the poker gods, that I timed out and it auto-folded.
    LOL, that sums it up nicely!
    3k post - Return of the blog!
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by elitemob
    Look at it this way: If you don't call here, what hand would it take for you to call?
    QFT
    DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this post are those of a fish. I will not be held accountable for anyone who actually takes my posts seriously.
  7. #7
    these are the type of situations u pray for when u get AA.
    I post nonconstructive piss
  8. #8
    In SNGs you have to learn not to be results orientated. Take it you lost the hand and busted in 3rd?
  9. #9
    Instacall. I think calling with AQ, JJ+ seems right depending on reads. The only way you get 3rd is if the shortstack (who is probably calling with a large range) cracks your aces AND the bigstacks hand. The chances of that happening are probably around 10%. The other 90% of the time you have a very good shot at 1st
  10. #10
    CoccoBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,523
    Location
    Finding my game
    Put it this way, with KK you'd be well over 50% to win even against insanely tight ranges for the situation, with AA it's as auto-call as it gets. QQ would probably be a fold though, at least against relatively sane people.
  11. #11

    Default Results of hand

    I of course insta called. Small stack showed KTo Big stack showed QJo, Small stack netted two pair, the ten on the river completed a straight for the large stack and I got second.


    I was thinking about it later and wondering if a case could be made for folding there. Seems like a resounding no!

    Thansk for confirming my thoughts
  12. #12
    Ragnar4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,184
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    against 2 players with any two random cards you're a coinflip favorite. Right?

    I'm making the argument that perhaps folding PF and hoping that the Big Stack knocks out the small stack is just as profitable here. The reason is that small stacks calling range is HUGE, in fact properly played, small stacks calling range is ATC.

    Meaning that large stacks range is so phenominally ahead of small stack, that he's more than a 2-1 favorite over small stack all the time. Not to mention small stack needs tou double through 3 times versus the large stack in order to gain the lead.

    One of the tiltboys over at their website talks about making high profile laydowns with premium hands because of the marginal opportunity of moving up in money by a substantial amount, or getting heads up in a tournament situatoin.

    That said, I would call AI instantly. But just some food for thought.
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar4
    against 2 players with any two random cards you're a coinflip favorite. Right?

    I'm making the argument that perhaps folding PF and hoping that the Big Stack knocks out the small stack is just as profitable here. The reason is that small stacks calling range is HUGE, in fact properly played, small stacks calling range is ATC.

    Meaning that large stacks range is so phenominally ahead of small stack, that he's more than a 2-1 favorite over small stack all the time. Not to mention small stack needs tou double through 3 times versus the large stack in order to gain the lead.

    One of the tiltboys over at their website talks about making high profile laydowns with premium hands because of the marginal opportunity of moving up in money by a substantial amount, or getting heads up in a tournament situatoin.

    That said, I would call AI instantly. But just some food for thought.
    No, no and no. No no no. We aren't against two random hands, there has to be some ranges (and even if we were, AA is is 71% against 2 randoms). Folding is never correct or just as profitable here and there is no argument.

    There really isn't such thing as a huge favorite, and there is no way to assume he is. It's hard to be worse than a 4:1 dog in this game when it gets all-in preflop, and it's probably closer to 3:1. I agree the shorties range is huge, but that's not what we're worried about. If the big stack knows anything, he can shove almost atc here correctly because hero needs a huge hand to call with the short stack in (something like AA!)

    Sure you can hope the big stack knocks him out, but what happens when he doubles up? Even if you just knew somehow that you would be heads up if you folded this, and the shortie would bust, you still shouldn't fold. Why would you rather guarantee second place going into heads up a 2:1 dog, rather than having a very very good chance at being a dominating chip lead hu (or still 3way of shortie survives)? It's just bad thinking when it comes to poker. You're in the money now play for the win.

    Folding here is just so terrible it makes my head hurt. Even just considering folding this is making my head hurt. The fact that this thread exits is making it explode. It's ACE ACE and you have to call all-in, the work has been done for you, say thank you, and maybe something along the lines of "all you can eat, baby." The only way I might fold is if 2nd place paid more than 1st, or if by folding I was awarded with x-ray vision.... that would be fun!
  14. #14
    Ragnar4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,184
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    Ok.

    Is it against 3 hands that AA is only a coinflip?
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar4
    Is it against 3 hands that AA is only a coinflip?
    I ran it through Pokerstove, and AA is 48.9% to win against five random hands. The point is, if five people went AI the first hand of the tourney with random hands, you would still call because you're getting 5:1 on the call but you're roughly even money to win.
  16. #16
    CoccoBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,523
    Location
    Finding my game
    Quote Originally Posted by taipan168
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar4
    Is it against 3 hands that AA is only a coinflip?
    I ran it through Pokerstove, and AA is 48.9% to win against five random hands. The point is, if five people went AI the first hand of the tourney with random hands, you would still call because you're getting 5:1 on the call but you're roughly even money to win.
    Exactly. Even sitting on the big blind, first hand of a FR SnG, all 9 players before u shove and you have AA. You're still about 29.7% to win and getting 9:1 on your money. There just isn't a situation in regular SNGs (qualifiers are an exception here) where it's correct to lay down rockets.
  17. #17
    lolomg
  18. #18
    what the saying "you are all dumber for having opened this thread"
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    what the saying "you are all dumber for having opened this thread"
    Pretty much
  20. #20

    Default Glad

    I'm glad I could contribute the the collective loss of intelligence at FTR
  21. #21
    Ragnar4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,184
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    No. I'm smarter after the opening of this thread. I had the math wrong for when Aces is only 50/50 against (x) other players.

    I'm only a little smarter, but still smarter. No such thing as a dumb question here, and it shouldn't be treated as such. We're here as a community to make eachother better. Some of us have farther to go than others down this road, like me.
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes
  22. #22
    If you go through your entire poker career without ever folding AA preflop you will not be doing anything wrong.

    The cases when it is correct to fold Aces preflop are so rare, and the only reason it is sometimes correct to do so has to do with the prize structure of the tournament and not with anything 'poker' related, that it those are situations you should fold any hand without ever looking at it


  23. #23
    The only way I might fold is if 2nd place paid more than 1st, or if by folding I was awarded with x-ray vision
    Early entry for quote of 2008... masterful...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •