Std, losing value, or just dumb? (6.50)

[bjsaust]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO (t1500)
Button (t1445)
SB (t1345)
Hero (t1450)
UTG (t1700)
UTG+1 (t1520)
MP1 (t1570)
MP2 (t1535)
MP3 (t1435)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 calls t30, 1 fold, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero raises to t1480, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: t210

[taipan168]

Meh shoving is a bit much here. With 6 limpers in front I'd make it something like 300 to go and see what happens. That said, shoving isn't terrible since you sometimes get some donk who thinks that their QJo is worth gambooling with.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, wasnt sure how to treat all those limpers with a hand like this.

[BioHarm]

Maybe you can make use of a rule. If you want to raise so much that you only get up against legitimate hands you can raise (x+5)bb, where x is the number of limpers, the bb incluis.

So I would raise about 10 to 12 times the blind (300-360 total) , when I feel like they might call very loose, I raise it up to about 15 - 18 times the blind (450 - 510 total).

QQ is a good hand and I like to play with it more then just picking up the (small) pot. When the blinds get bigger and the pot (with all those limpers $) gets to about 1/3th of your stack, I might shove it in.

GoodLuck

[Skeeno]

Yeah I think shoving is a little excessive here, I'd probably raise to somewhere around 350ish.

However all that being said monsters in the early levels are a menace at times, the number of times you do shove QQ/KK/AA and get a call from AJ/Q10 whatever makes it worth doing sometimes. I don't think its terrible put it that way.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, I'm well aware of standard raising rules, thankyou. My thinking was that with that many limpers at those stakes, my chances of getting a donkey to call was fairly good.

[BioHarm]

Yeah, I'm well aware of standard raising rules,
thankyou. My thinking was that with that many limpers at those stakes,
my chances of getting a donkey to call was fairly good.

I can not dissagree with you here, since you see many call here with a
lower pp or AK/AQ/AJ. But... there's always a but, I think you achive the
same effect with a healty raise + you CAN get away on a AK flop and save some chips.
You should be able to outplay those ppl who call here with AQ
during the tourney and still get their chips.


The advantage here is that you don't have to risk you entire stack YET at
these levels, you can't win a tournament in the first levels. You should be
even as happy to win a big pot than with doubling up, since you had less
risk of being busted out. The risk of being busted out vs. Ax is about 30%
vs. AK its even as much as 45%. Do you want to take such risk in the early levels?

[marmot]

I don't hate the shove with this much action but like the others think raising it up to about 350 is probably the optimum play.

I think you achive the
same effect with a healty raise + you CAN get away on a AK flop and save some chips

I agree

[Skeeno]

My thinking was that with that many limpers at those stakes, my chances of getting a donkey to call was fairly good.

Agree and it's certainly a worthwhile move if you can get a possible call - it wouldn't have surprised me if one of them called with A4 and spiked his Ace!

[taipan168]

You should be able to outplay those ppl who call here with AQ during the tourney and still get their chips.

This is wrong thinking. You are DELIGHTED if they call a push here with AQ. Why wait for a chance to outplay them later when 70% of the time you take their stack right now?

The advantage here is that you don't have to risk you entire stack YET at
these levels, you can't win a tournament in the first levels. You should be
even as happy to win a big pot than with doubling up, since you had less
risk of being busted out. The risk of being busted out vs. Ax is about 30%
vs. AK its even as much as 45%. Do you want to take such risk in the early levels?

Again, I am jumping for joy if they call my push with Ax. Even against AK I have correct odds even taking the ICM effect into account since we need to be 54.7% to win (assuming we are called) and against AK, QQ is 56% to win.

[BioHarm]

Ok, excuzes moi, but thank you very much

This is exactly the reason why I registered for the FTR forum. I mostly think way too conservative, thats why I think/thought you don't like 70/30 gambling early on in tourneys/sngs.

ICM, whats that?

[bjsaust]

Check the stickies, there are a couple of really good links to ICM information. In brief ICM is a way of calculating whether its +EV to put all your chips into the middle (either pushing or calling). It takes into account our cash position if we fold, if we push and dont get called, if we push and get called and win, and if push and get called but lose. We use opps range to work out the percentage of times that we get called, and we can use pokerstove to see what percentage of times we win v's the range we put opp on.

In this case, even if I could see the tables hole cards, and an opp had AK, it can still be a good push because very rarely AK will fold, and even if called I'm a slight favorite to win, and there are dead chips in the centre making the risk more worthwhile.

Note I'm not saying pushing was the correct move, I'm just giving reasons why I did push. The reason I posted was I wasnt sure how smart that was.

Another reason for pushing (again taking standard table behaviour at these stakes into account) is that if even one person shortly after me calls, then I can expect a lot of callers, thats just how it works. Likewise it gives someone a chance to push over. Now no thinking player would limp AA or KK with that many seeing the flop, but it could happen, but it could also be a donk who cant stand the idea of seeing a raised flop with their mid pocket pair, or just an opportunist trying to steal lots of spare chips, giving me a crap decision to make.