How to arrive to specific VPIP(20-25%) without open limping?

[sunfunbunch]

Hi, long time no post.

Anyhow - I was wanting to know how one would accomplish a vpip of 20 without open limping a certain percentage of hands in utg and utg+1 in 6 max? (same with 25% vpip)

The pfr is the easy part to aim for when I see VPIP/PFR statistics....however, I am having a hard time incorporating the VPIP into my play (in theory)...

How do we arrive to specific VPIP?

Thanks!

[mixchange]

raise very tight UTG-MP

when folded to rasie almost anything OTB

= 20%

[Muzzard]

raise very tight UTG-MP

when folded to rasie almost anything OTB

= 20%

That would adjust your PFR not VPIP

[ChrisTheFish]

raise very tight UTG-MP

when folded to rasie almost anything OTB

= 20%

That would adjust your PFR not VPIP

Yeah but your PFR can't be bigger than your VPIP obv.

If you raise 20% of your hands on the button and never limp, both your VPIP and PFR will be 20% for the button. So to answer OP, just raise more if you don't wanna limp!

[bode]

raising 15-16% of hands and calling/limping behind a normal amount will get you to 20% VPIP no problem.

[Ash256]

Don't feel pressured to arrive at a medium VPIP if you don't think it's optimal.

[meeloche]

Don't feel pressured to arrive at a medium VPIP if you don't think it's optimal.

This is very true, you're preflop stats should show how comfortable you are with you're post flop game. There are players who beet micro stakes with stats like 13/10. That might be a good place to start, as you get more comfortable you can loosen up your stats preflop.

[Galapogos]

raise very tight UTG-MP

when folded to rasie almost anything OTB

= 20%

That would adjust your PFR not VPIP

Your PFR is included in your VPIP, therefore it affects it.

[Kamawoop]

If you are playing micro-stakes than I would recommend limping alot. Who cares about building the pot, or narrowing the range when it's likely you'll get an allin bluffer, or caller for the nuts anyhow?

If you are playing higher then 0.25 / 0.50 then in my opinion 20% is too tight. Of course many players can play that range profitably, but I would rather fold AQ to the nits and play 57 against the maniacs.

[Chopper]

keep playing tightly ep. and start "hiding behind limpers." you arent open-limping in these situations. and, get rather wide from CO and BTN. viola.

marginals like sc's, pp's <TT, AXs are what i would "hide" with. that is if you arent into "isolation." if you are isolating, obv, raise these hands. i run about 20/10 if not isolating. if isolating, i run about 18/15.

but, you asked how to hit vpip of 20% w/o open limping. thats one way.

[EzDuzIt]

isolating is almost always going to be better than limping behind or "hiding" or w/e youre talking about

[Chopper]

isolating is almost always going to be better than limping behind or "hiding" or w/e youre talking about

you are probably right. but, that said...

i dont play up high. therefore, i get called by a lot when i raise a lot. maybe i should raise larger amounts, but, when my 67s gets called HU, its not good. same for 44, 8Ts, KTo, etc....all the stuff you may isolate with. and, it requires more cbetting. once your cbets get called frequently, floated, or even raised, you are put to tough decisions with marginal hands that, imo, you shouldnt have been raising in the first place.

its simply easier on the decision making to limp behind, or "hide" as i call it. do it with good multiway holdings, and allow all the other fish in. once you hit your hand, you have NO trouble building pots. you keep bad flops small. you build big ones when you like to. simple way to carry a solid winrate at microstakes.

by saying that you SHOULD be isolating, while correct, is not taking into account OP's, or mine for that matter, skill levels post flop. i will tell anyone that i'm not a great post flop player. therefore, isolating tends to get me into trouble. i isolate less often, and that allows me to get better at my pace.

OP may want to isolate, maybe not. but, HE must assess HIS post flop level. isolating solely because its the most +EV decision is not the reason, imo, to do it all of a sudden. it may not be the most EV for HIM.

yes, isolation is the way to go, but i think we need to take into account our own skill levels before we just say to ourselves, "im isolating from now on."

just wanted to add that.

[Ash256]

If you are playing micro-stakes than I would recommend limping alot. Who cares about building the pot, or narrowing the range when it's likely you'll get an allin bluffer, or caller for the nuts anyhow?

If you are playing higher then 0.25 / 0.50 then in my opinion 20% is too tight. Of course many players can play that range profitably, but I would rather fold AQ to the nits and play 57 against the maniacs.

No offence, but a lot of that post is backwards.

1) I agree with EzDuzIt, raising pre and cbetting is more profitable than limping and hoping to catch something IMO.

2) 20% is not too tight if you're playing higher than 50NL. Phil Galfond (OMGClayAiken) recently said that he thinks you can beat nosebleeds playing 16/14 as long as you balance your ranges.

Also:



Yes, that's playing 17/13 at 100NL. I had a multitabling ratio of about 8 there as well. I'm happy to admit I was on a bit of a heater, but I could definitely see my winrate settling at about 2.5-3.


Why the hell would you wanna play 57 to the maniacs? Gimme big cards vs. those fools any day.


"Who cares about building the pot"

WHAT?!!!?!!!?!?!!


"or narrowing the range"

WHAT!?!!?!!?!!!



Building the pot is ESSENTIAL. If you don't build a pot there's nothing to bet into. Pot control is a much bigger part of NLHE than you think.

If you don't bother narrowing your opponent's range (which indicates you're not thinking about it) then you don't know what you're trying to achieve. It sounds like you're blindly shoving your big hands hoping your opponent has something good; which in some cases is correct but more often than not you need to optimize your betting towards the part of your opponent's range that you can make the most money off.



I'm not trying to be harsh or an arsehole here, I'm just trying to kick the learning cycle in - you have a lot to learn and here is an awesome place to learn it.

[EzDuzIt]

isolating is almost always going to be better than limping behind or "hiding" or w/e youre talking about

you are probably right. but, that said...

i dont play up high. therefore, i get called by a lot when i raise a lot. maybe i should raise larger amounts, but, when my 67s gets called HU, its not good. same for 44, 8Ts, KTo, etc....all the stuff you may isolate with. and, it requires more cbetting. once your cbets get called frequently, floated, or even raised, you are put to tough decisions with marginal hands that, imo, you shouldnt have been raising in the first place.

its simply easier on the decision making to limp behind, or "hide" as i call it. do it with good multiway holdings, and allow all the other fish in. once you hit your hand, you have NO trouble building pots. you keep bad flops small. you build big ones when you like to. simple way to carry a solid winrate at microstakes.

by saying that you SHOULD be isolating, while correct, is not taking into account OP's, or mine for that matter, skill levels post flop. i will tell anyone that i'm not a great post flop player. therefore, isolating tends to get me into trouble. i isolate less often, and that allows me to get better at my pace.

OP may want to isolate, maybe not. but, HE must assess HIS post flop level. isolating solely because its the most +EV decision is not the reason, imo, to do it all of a sudden. it may not be the most EV for HIM.

yes, isolation is the way to go, but i think we need to take into account our own skill levels before we just say to ourselves, "im isolating from now on."

just wanted to add that.

if hes going to call you with lots of weak hands preflop that is a good thing for isolating. not a reason to limp. if there are already a couple limpers or a limper and some really loose guys behind still then it might be better to limp with certain hands when its almost always going to be multiway, but if you are going to be hu mostly then isolate.

[sauce123]

Don't feel pressured to arrive at a medium VPIP if you don't think it's optimal.

end thread

[sunfunbunch]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies

I was just having a hard time grasping these vpip/pfr concepts in theory.

If someone was *aiming* for a 25/17, how would they go about it?
Would they not HAVE to open limp or just limp in general to get the estimated VPIP?

However, I have read a bunch of threads and tips that open limping, or limping in general was generally frowned upon and that is why I was confused as to how people would arrive to those numbers if they did not recommend limping.....

(no specific reason as to why I chose 20/12 or 25/17)

[bair]

you can get any vpip/pfr you want without open limping.
if you are aiming for 25/17, well of course it depends on what ur current vpip/pfr is.if ur 20/17, then you would not raise anymore hands, but call more raises or complete more in the sb. if ur 20/12, then you would just raise 5% more hands. btw..i dunno if ur confused or not, but open limping means you open the action with a limp, meaning there are no bets before you.

[sunfunbunch]

Yeah, lets suppose that right now there is NO vpip/pfr and we are brand new player (which we are not, but play along).

If we aim for a 25/17 stats or 20/12 stats would we not have to either limp (or cold call raises?) to make up for the the 8% difference in vpip to pfr....

I think I can rephrase my question now: how does one make up the 8% difference?

-open limp more?
-limp only in co and button more with limpers in front?
-call pfr more in position
etc etc...

[Jager]

You make up the difference cold calling, either in position or in the blinds. However, think about what you want to cold call with, then consider if 3betting it would be better.

[Kamawoop]

Play 55/45 if a clear maniac is playing 70+ VPIP. Play 30/20 if everyone else is playing 15/10 (or find another table).


Who cares about poker, just take the idiot's money, (Quick! Before someome else does.)

[Cocco_Bill]

OP sent me this PM and I thought it would be better to answer here

I posted a question on the shnl forum that could use you help on:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ng-t65583.html

Anyhow, I think I recall seeing your new 6max stats hovering around 20/12.

Do you open limp a lot in the utg and utg+1 to get that vpip?

I ask b/c the general consensus is that limping is frowned upon, but you seem to be dominating even with your vpip being a little higher than average compared to your pfr.

What happens in games where there is a of aggression and you pretty much know your limps will get raised?

Anyhow, thanks for your time

First of all I am playing considerably looser lately having gradually moved up in stakes and even the midstakes games are getting tougher, because of this my nitty style is getting harder to pull off. Good players make it almost impossible to limp any reasonable range in early position. On certain fishy passively playing tables I will still limp at times. Much of the gap between pfr and vpip comes from calling raises from weak players in position.
I still believe most players are much better off concentrating the majority of their efforts into understanding and applying mathematical concepts of postflop play into their game, this includes bluffing frequencies balancing ranges etc even basic stuff like folding too much in big pots and passing up on marginal value are very common mistakes even among grinders.

If anyone cares, here's my numbers from the last month or so.

My ptbb/100 is lower but my hourly rate has actually increased. :P
Of course I've been lucky to run good at the higher stakes and bad at the lower ones. I am still curious to see if I can maintain my good results playing this somewhat looser style.

[Halv]

I think that screenshot is rigged!

[jackvance]

cocco bill posting winrates, this thread is going 3+ pages

[Da GOAT]

either my calculator is broken or them stats dont add up

[Cocco_Bill]

either my calculator is broken or them stats dont add up

its 21 levels I chose to sort it by losing levels first

[Chopper]

EZ...nice win btw... and fwiw, i WAS talking about loose tables where raises are still going multi-way. you either raise them even higher or just limp and play small ball. i prefer small ball because i dont like 7-8X raises pf against 40/10 players. their range is still wide enough i get into trouble...hence, the "i suck post flop" admission.

yes, if you can get it HU, i isolate nearly 100% of the time, and anyone else would be a complete fool not to, as well. but, when you raise your KJs to isolate and get 3 callers, 2 of which have position on you, you are kind of screwed with my post flop skills...and i would reckon most other's, too.

OP, download "pokerstove" software, and type in percentage ranges. type in 25%, for example. granted, pstove is set up for limit ranges, but it WILL give you an idea of the range that will lead to the stats you desire to run.

however, running 25/10 for the sake of it, or any other proportion is a humongous mistake if you dont understand how your range will work against the other players, and how their ranges will work against yours.

i would recommend starting tight and slowly, through experience, opening up in late position. start adding small pp's to your raising range. or, start playing 67s+. add them one category at a time, and LEARN how to take pots with them. then, add another category. just do it all slowly. not because you all of a sudden want to play a "looser" style.