$2 TT...wth and why?

[Im_new]

I really have no clue what I should have done hear... sooooo many calls... I hoped a FD wouldn't call the flop re-raise...was the raise big enough? What about the atrocities on the turn?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1420
UTG+1: t1540
MP1: t1820
HERO: t1470
MP3: t1170
CO: t1410
Button: t1390
SB: t1450
BB: t1830

Pre-flop: (9 players) HERO is MP2 with T T
UTG calls t20 (pot was t30), UTG+1 calls t20 (pot was t50), MP1 folds, HERO calls t20 (pot was t70), 3 folds, SB calls t10 (pot was t90), BB checks.

Flop: Q 5 T (t100, 5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t40, UTG calls t40 (pot was t140), UTG+1 calls t40 (pot was t180), HERO raises to t240, SB folds, BB calls t200 (pot was t460), UTG calls t200 (pot was t660), UTG+1 folds.

Turn: 3 (t860, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets t40, HERO raises to t160, BB raises to t580, UTG calls t540 (pot was t1640), HERO raises all-in t1210, BB raises all-in t1570, UTG calls all-in t580.
Uncalled bets: t360 returned to BB.

River: 9 (t4390, 0 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: t4340, Sidepot 1: t100)


Results:
Final pot: t4390

[mattiesmat]

Preflop and flop look good.
On the turn I am not sure what is best.
You could bet pot, so 900ish or shove or you could just call since a heart is not a good card with 2 other players and reevaluate the river.
I think I would just call the turn, since it's safer, but it might be a little too weak.
If there was just one other player or had they played more active(betting/raising pre and on the flop) I would definitely bet the turn, since it's less likely they made their draw.

[taipan168]

I agree with mattiesmat, preflop and flop are fine.

On the turn, your raise is way too small, you are giving your opps better than 6 to 1 odds to call and chase a flush (eg. if they have the A). The pot is big enough for me to just shove it right now, if somebody made a flush on the turn then I hope to spike one of my 10 outs on the river.

[Im_new]

yea...I see that now...that raise was pretty small...thanks.

[davekp2003]

With TT i usually raise pre-flop and continuation bet no matter what the flops. At the lower levels I pick it up the flop 75% of the time. Is it wrong for me to be raising pre flop with TT? I wouldn't with 99 but TT or better, AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs I'm raising.

[taipan168]

With TT i usually raise pre-flop and continuation bet no matter what the flops. At the lower levels I pick it up the flop 75% of the time. Is it wrong for me to be raising pre flop with TT? I wouldn't with 99 but TT or better, AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs I'm raising.

With two limpers in front and from MP2 I would limp behind with TT as well. This early, basically I'm playing TT like 22-99, ie. limp, try to see a cheap flop, hit a set and stack somebody.

The hands that I would raise (to 5x BB) are JJ+ and AK. AQ is really close and could go either way. AJ I would fold, 22-TT I limp behind.

The problems with raising here are:
a) in a $2 SNG it is very likely that the two limpers and probably a couple of other players will come along, meaning you have built a massive pot when...
b) ...overcards come on the flop the majority of the time when you have TT
c) You do not have position postflop
d) If somebody re-raises behind it will be difficult to make the call because you may not have implied odds to call and try to flop a set.

[elitemob]

Hey man,

I definitly PFR TT, I'd raise 5x here (so 100) here to punish the limpers. Even though there may still be action behind you there is no reason not to do it. If I'm faced with a reraise and don't have position I'd probably fold if I don't have pot odds (which of course depends on your reads of said opp). That way you would have eliminated some drawing hands.

You made a set on the flop, I'd bet hard there probably 2/3-3/4 of the pot so you don't give anyone the odds to draw on you. That way you can win the pot right there or eliminate drawing hands (unless they're maniacs) and you probably beat value hands. As played I would not shove on the turn but get out right there, you're still at ~ 1k chips if you do, why push it? This guy raised (and big), after seeing a bet and a raise in front of him. Getting out is the smarter move if you ask me, there'll be a better spot to get your chips in.

My $0.02 (This is mostly from a cash-table perspective. Still, I compare early stages of SnGs to the tables)

[taipan168]

I definitly PFR TT, I'd raise 5x here (so 100) here to punish the limpers. Even though there may still be action behind you there is no reason not to do it. If I'm faced with a reraise and don't have position I'd probably fold if I don't have pot odds (which of course depends on your reads of said opp). That way you would have eliminated some drawing hands.

In a cash game I would definitely raise TT too. In a SNG stacks are much shallower (also because you can't reload) so I would limp behind. If you are playing a pocket pair for set value it's actually good to go to the flop in a multiway situation.

You made a set on the flop, I'd bet hard there probably 2/3-3/4 of the pot so you don't give anyone the odds to draw on you. That way you can win the pot right there or eliminate drawing hands (unless they're maniacs) and you probably beat value hands.

With four opps seeing the flop 2/3-3/4 pot is too small a raise to drive out the drawing hands. The problem with a smaller bet is that it would price out the draws against one opp, but against four, as each opp calls, each subsequent opp gets better odds to chase. Hero's bet is a good size here (raising by more than the pot).

As played I would not shove on the turn but get out right there, you're still at ~ 1k chips if you do, why push it? This guy raised (and big), after seeing a bet and a raise in front of him. Getting out is the smarter move if you ask me, there'll be a better spot to get your chips in.

I would shove after UTG's donkminbet to deny any opp odds to draw if they have a single . As OP played, you can't fold. Even if BB has a flush, we have 10 outs to suck out on the river and they don't always have the flush, you see hands like QT, Ax, KQ/JQ and other random crap hands play the same way at the $2 level.

[bjsaust]

Definately limp TT with 2 limpers in front. You guys need to start adjusting for stuff like that if you want to move up. TT is a weak hand in a multiway pot, and as Taipan points out, short of a really big raise that only gets called/raised by monsters (costing us chips), this pot is definately doing to be multi-way, PFR or not. Keep the pot small, build it when we hit. Which leads to:

The Flop. I like this. You definately need at least a PSB here for the same reasons we limped PF, except now its us that has the monster. We want to build a pot and these guys will let us do it. Not only that, but we need people to make mistakes on their draws, and with this many out there we really need to charge them to chase.

The turn. Here was your mistake. I just shove my chips in here. You get called by all sorts of TP crap hands (if they called your flop bet which they did to still be here), and whilst the heart is a pain in the butt, the draw chasers could as easily be holding KJ or something looking for a straight. You REALLY want them to make a mistake calling here, and dude, you have a set! Getting all your money in as quickly as you can is your aim here .

[elitemob]

That was pretty interesting, thanks bjsaust and taipan! So if I understand that right the goal with these types of hands (especially at low buy-ins) that are not "monsters" like AA/KK/QQ and AK/(AQ) is to see cheap flops and if you flop a monster to be aggressive since the main problem is that PFR are just flat-called. So if just one of em (callers) hits the board and you didn't then you lost a lot of chips already.

[drmcboy]

raise flop a lot more, three people are in already, someone has something.

pre flop, raising or limping is OK. The idea that one play here is always right doesn't make sense and is extremely limiting.

If anything, it's better to raise at higher levels because EP limpers have lower PPs much more than any other hand since most people will either raise or fold BWs. In addition, we'll usually end up with the button if we raise (at any BI level) and that in and of itself may be worth a raise.

[elitemob]

I guess it's now 50/50 raisers vs. limpers *laughs*

[bjsaust]

If anything, it's better to raise at higher levels because EP limpers have lower PPs much more than any other hand since most people will either raise or fold BWs.

I guess it's now 50/50 raisers vs. limpers *laughs*

You can adjust when you move up levels . For now, limp it!

[fjuanl]

At a $2 I think its better to limp with TT in this spot because you usually never get people to fold (preflop or postflop).

[drmcboy]

You have a top 5% hand, they will 'never' fold pre or on the flop, so... don't put money in?

If they really never fold, it seems clear you can make a ton of money raising and only continuing with set or over pair.

[bjsaust]

Look at that PF action. The moneys going into the pot. Hero is playing a $1.20, thats as loose as it comes. If we're not going to knock many (if any) out with a raise, then we should see the flop as cheaply as possible and if we get a favorable flop, then get our money in. Heck, this hand is the perfect example of why thats the right play.

I'm not saying never raise TT from position, even with callers, but this isnt the right game to do it in.

[fjuanl]

I dont have a problem raising preflop, its probably what I would do at anything higher than $5 SnGs. At a $2 SnG I dont like it as much because I don't want to be in situations where I raise preflop and get 3+ callers that will not fold when they pair jacks, queens, kings, aces