Finally ITM (placed 2nd) the first time ($5.50)

[elitemob]

Hey,

so this was my 8th SnG (including our SnG experiment) and finally I did make it ITM *cheers*

I think my game improved substentially in the last week and I had really good winning sessions on the tables ($40 in 2.5 hours and up) so I decided to finally give it another shot and it seemed to work much better. I was able to kick 2 players out myself and it generally went well. I have to admit though, that I played a bit too passively for my taste ... 4-way pots and upwards to PFRs really got me a little worried about being aggressive when I was just on a draw (you know, opps were looser, so their ranges are wider and with 4+ opps still in the pot someone HAS to hit something) Additionally I believe I probably should have played tighter in heads-up b/c it was still deep stacked but well, I'm not even through with HoH Vol. 1 Last but not least I didn't really know how to bully people with my big stack on the bubble.

Anyways, I'd love some comments

http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-2599.html

Sorry ... something's wrong when I post the HH in here (HTTP 406 not acceptable) ... the server probably has the opinion that I'm still pretty bad at SnGs ... lol

PS: I just loooove to call all-ins with combo draws :P

[fjuanl]

Overall Id say you played well considering this was only your 8th sng

Hand 3 - Don't like the raise. You want to be in small pots in late position with hands like this. Limping isnt terrible but its probably best to fold preflop

Hand 8 - I would check. Especially at the low limits you arent going to get anyone to fold. AJs is a good hand, but not one you want to play out of position with lots of opponents

Hand 9 - Not a big deal, but raising to 300 accomplishes the same thing. Raising less allows you to continuation bet flops without risking as many chips.

Hand 10 - I like how you played the turn, but the river all in is not good. After you push all in on the river, only hands like a pair of jacks or trip 2's are going to call such an overbet. Betting something like 300 seems better

Hand 12 - I like the flop bet since the board is pretty harmless. Well played

Hand 17 - If your going to raise preflop you should continuation bet a flop like this

Hand 18 - To call this all in you have to be pretty sure your opponent is pushing with almost any two cards.

Hand 19 - Well played, although I like raising to 400 preflop

Hand 26 - I'm ok with the flop bet but theres no point in calling the river when you have queen high

Hand 27 - You still have a good amount of chips to call the preflop raise


A good poker book for beggners is "Sit-N-Go Strategy" by Collin Mosshman

[bjsaust]

Hand 2 (56o) - In the words of Taipan, if you closed the action here this would be fine, but you dont so its a fold.

Hand 3 (89s) - Suited connectors arent worth the trouble in SnGs, they're definately not worth raising. I'm not sure what your plan with this hand was, but a raise here should be to 120 if you want to limit the field (and I'm not sure why you want to do that, since this is a hand you only continue with if you hit huge, so you want multiple people in to pay you off when you do, and minimum chips down when you dont), a limp if you really want to play this loosely, but a fold is the correct move.

Hand 4 (AA) - Fine. Its a flip between a larger bet to inflate the pot and a this bet to get a call.

Hand 5 (JJ) - I know we harp on about betting out to stop draws/etc, but Veerosh raised over 2 limpers, thats a pretty aggressive PF line, we should be fairly confident of a c-bet here, which we can c/r for extra chippies .

Hand 7 (46s) - Honestly, I just save my chips and fold PF.

Hand 8 (AJs) - We're going to be out of position on this hand, theres no point inflating the pot here. If we do want to raise, we've got 4 limpers here, so make it 3x50 + 4x50 = 350 to go. Now you see the problem though, one or two callers and any c-bet might as well be a push. So we check this hand and only continue if we hit the flop.

Hand 9 (AJo) - No need for 4xBB PF now, 150 to go is fine.

Hand 10 (ATo) - I dont like this push on the river. What are you hoping will happen here? You only get called by hands that beat you. With a pot of 750 I put in a 400 value bet and probably call a push over.

Hand 11 (77) - Wow, what a pack of loose donkeys. Other than making it 300 to go PF this is fine.

Hand 12 (A5o) - Probably your best hand so far, nicely played all streets.

Hand 13 (AKo) - This is fine. Could also push PF. Just be aware that in a spot like this, if opp calls your PF raise, they're almost certainly planning a stop'n'go, where they'll shove the rest of their chips in on any flop, so be prepared to call that even if you dont hit.

Hand 15 (AQo) - Nice.

Hand 17 (QJo) - C-bet that flop. Most opps love to put you on Ax here and will reraise most Aces PF themselves.

Hand 18 (JTo) - With your stack I like this.

Hand 19 (78s) - Theres that stop'n'go. Mind you, 78s should be folded PF here, but as played the flop is fine.

Hand 23 (JTs) - Another spot I might look for a c/r instead.

T J BU (M = 28.03; F) - Raise that.

Hand 24 (22) - C-bet flop.

Hand 26 (QTo) - Man, tough spot. I think I double barrel here, on the assumption that if he'd hit he'd c/r my flop, so he's probably drawing. This guy is incredibly loose, we need to be taking advantage of that.

Hand 27 (QJo) - Heres where you need to have reads. This guy hasnt raised PF for ages. He's very passive. When he raises you here, he certainly has a much stronger hand than QJo. Its noticing and adjusting to stuff like this that will let you take these things down.

[bjsaust]

Lets talk about hand 18 since thats the one fjuanl and I had different opinions on. I'm not sure if theres a name for a call like this, or how it comes up on ICM or anything, to me its a gambool worth taking. Even if we call and lose, we still have the biggest stack, and on the bubble we're looking to make the biggest $EV move of the game, get ITM. Therefore even if we know we're a dog in this hand, I still like to call since the risk to our position is minimal, yet our potential gain is the highest it can be in an SNG. If Opp showed me face up any hand other than TT+ I'd still call this. AKs would be a snapcall for me.

[DetroitHusling101]

Lets talk about hand 18 since thats the one fjuanl and I had different opinions on. I'm not sure if theres a name for a call like this, or how it comes up on ICM or anything, to me its a gambool worth taking. Even if we call and lose, we still have the biggest stack, and on the bubble we're looking to make the biggest $EV move of the game, get ITM. Therefore even if we know we're a dog in this hand, I still like to call since the risk to our position is minimal, yet our potential gain is the highest it can be in an SNG. If Opp showed me face up any hand other than TT+ I'd still call this. AKs would be a snapcall for me.

I agree with fjuanl that it is a fold , and i also do not like calling here. Maybe @ 100/200 ante 25 w/ villian as same stack it wouldn't be as bad IMO.

[bjsaust]

Taipan ran the numbers and Opp needs to push 70% or wider here for it to be a call (which he's not). I still tend to call though.

[DetroitHusling101]

ran it through SNGEGT just now , which does not factor in overcalls , and when punching in the numbers noticed that BB has a big stack too so that makes me dislike it more , but anyways if villian is pushing 68% of hands here it is .3% +EV (i calculate it for .3 because we really don't want to be taking any edge less than that.) , i doubt villian EVER pushes this wide here with nearly 7bbs with a 10bb stack around so it's a clear fold.

[fjuanl]

The problem with the JTo hand is that theres still someone to act after you. It would be a disaster to call 1k in chips and have the BB reraise (or call). Also you should be able to exploit the bubble and pick up plenty of chips without having to win a showdown. Id rather be the aggressor and steal opp's blinds than call in a situation where your almost always behind

[bjsaust]

Yeah, you guys are winning me around. That and doing this a few times today and losing chips.

I'll have to work on correcting this.

[drmcboy]

BJ, rather than putting your money in bad when big CL on bubble, you should strongly consider making some bad (cEV) folds to maintain bubble.

I assume you understand that logically but are just reacting to not wanting to end up bubbling if you lose a couple showdowns.

[bjsaust]

To be honest, I've started focusing on making it ITM as my main goal lately. Hadnt really realised that till you point that out right now.

Multi-tabling I've worked out that each set if I get half my tables ITM then I at minimum break even. I think I've been focusing on that more than pwning the buble when I get the chance.

Thanks drmc .

[elitemob]

Thanks for the feedback so far, let me write some short "explanations" about the hands you guys commented on.

to fjuanl:

Hand 3 - You're right, that was a typical cash-table raise, I really have to stop doing that :P Thanks for pointing me there (It's great in cash games though b/c if you play TAGG then nobody's going to put you on that hand)

Hand 8 - I certainly found that out. They were all pretty loose and I couldn't really bet them out of any pot PF ... "terrible" situation and exactly the opposite to cash-games. I really noticed that this hand and was like ... "wtf, 3 callers"

Hand 9 - I see, good argument *makes mental note*

Hand 10 - You're right, I really have no idea why I did that O_O

Hand 12 - thanks

Hand 17 - Well, here's the thing, I didn't have anything just the remote possibility of a straight. Since he called my PFR I thought an A was well in his range. Additionally I think he never folded to a cbet according to stats. So I actually planned on check-folding this (if he was going to bet I didn't want to waste any chips with 2 streets to come, with so few outs (I don't count Q or J as outs btw since it's very likely he has an A or better if he bets)

Hand 18 - You're right, this guy was waaaaay too loose IIRC (I think he played like 60% of his hands) and I got him well covered so this was marginal but I gave it a shot.

Hand 19 - thanks again I guess I have to tone down my PFR values a bit when blinds increase.

Hand 26 - wtf did I do there? (edit: ok, I just remembered, look down to the comments I made for bjsaust)

Hand 27 - yeah, gah, I get really confused during heads-up sometimes. I should've noticed that he plays lots of hands but raises only a few so there's not point in me trying to re-steal that.


to bjsaust:

Hand 2 - yeah, I slapped myself after that :P

Hand 3 - Well, I just love to play suited connectors in cash-games, they're such great hands if you have a TAGG image. Here's why: only good hands will call your raise when you have such an image. So The flop either helps you or them, so it makes for pretty easy decisions post-flop, you see? cbetting if they miss the flop and you're on a draw is amazingly powerful in those situations (at my levels). I agree that it's probably not worth it in SnGs

Hand 5 - I hadn't thought of that at that moment, good idea!

Hand 7 - I disagree. It takes me $25 to complete (and probably close the action) for a $225 pot, thats 9:1. Even though that's a total trash hand I'll definitely look that flop up.

Hand 8 - I see where you're getting at. At that point I thought that I could bet some ppl out of the pot.

Hand 9 - Ok

Hand 10 - As fjuanl already mentioned (see above)

Hand 11 - You bet, that can be really annoying though :P

Hand 12 - thank you

Hand 13 - Ah, ok ... good to know that. At this point I just didn't feel like pushing just yet.

Hand 15 - thanks

Hand 17 - As mentioned above to fjuanl

Hand 18 - thanks again

Hand 19 - See hand 3 on why I did that (and this time it exactly worked as in cash-games).

Hand 23 - I can definitely see how this puts extra pressure on your opponent. Thanks for the tip, you're right, this would be an ideal spot.

T J BU (M = 28.03; F) - missed that one O_O ugh

Hand 24 - Thanks for that tip, missed that one opportunity too

Hand 26 - After he showed I thought his turn check was incredibly evil :P Anyways I should not have called the river, I thought he wanted to bet me out of it with nothing but a high kicker on the pair of 4s that's why I called.

Hand 27 - Yeah, you noticed what I didn't at that moment. I thought I could re-steal but didn't realize that he only raises good hands, while he still plays most hands. (I think he was 40/5/0.6 or sth., note that this is % he sees flop/% raised hands/aggression factor ... I don't know if that's what you guys use all the time)

[bjsaust]

I've only used PAHUD a few times so far. My reads just come by noticing this stuff. By the bubble, and definately ITM, you should have a feel for how your opps are playing, especially stuff like PF raising ranges.


Its worth rereading all the tactics guides on here. Theres a great line in one (cant remember which) that states something like "Stack size > pot odds in SnGs". Thats why hands like hand 3 are bad. Its more important to preserve our stack in an SNG than it is play pot odds poker.

[fjuanl]

Hand 17 - Well, here's the thing, I didn't have anything just the remote possibility of a straight. Since he called my PFR I thought an A was well in his range. Additionally I think he never folded to a cbet according to stats. So I actually planned on check-folding this (if he was going to bet I didn't want to waste any chips with 2 streets to come, with so few outs (I don't count Q or J as outs btw since it's very likely he has an A or better if he bets)

Usually when you raise preflop and get one caller, it becomes correct to bet the flop regardless of your cards. I'll usually bet the flop on all but the most dangerous looking boards. Its probably best to stay more conservative at $2 SnG's because people play so loose postflop, but you should still pick up the aggression. One thing I noted about this hand was that its on the bubble and theres a tiny stack with 800ish chips. Even though your opponent has a healthy amount of chips, they usually wont be sticking around without a solid hand knowing that they are close to getting in the money

PT and PokerAceHud help a lot in game but its important to not rely on the stats completely. Usually they aren't accurate numbers unless you stats for 100 or more hands. It can also be really misleading in terms of postflop play since its possible villian just happend to hit lots of flops that particular tournament.

GL at the tables

[elitemob]

Ok, I understand your reasoning. I have one question though: WHY is it correct to bet the flop regardless of the cards in your opinion? Don't get me wrong, I usually cbet but in this case I thought it was a waste of chips since I only had a remote draw. So why bet chips at this point if I can have the same information for free (which directly refers to taipan's recent post)? If I bet and he calls/raises I know he probably has something, he wouldn't lay down A high type of hands just b/c of my bet. On the other hand I can check. If he bets I have the same type of information (he most likely has something) and I didn't put in any of my chips for it.

As I said, I'm usually quite aggressive myself, but in this instance I think checking is the smarter play.

I fully agree with your comment on stats/hud. I don't think it's the holy grail either, but it helps.

[taipan168]

I have one question though: WHY is it correct to bet the flop regardless of the cards in your opinion? Don't get me wrong, I usually cbet but in this case I thought it was a waste of chips since I only had a remote draw. So why bet chips at this point if I can have the same information for free (which directly refers to taipan's recent post)? If I bet and he calls/raises I know he probably has something, he wouldn't lay down A high type of hands just b/c of my bet. On the other hand I can check. If he bets I have the same type of information (he most likely has something) and I didn't put in any of my chips for it.

As I said, I'm usually quite aggressive myself, but in this instance I think checking is the smarter play.

Re Hand 17, I would c-bet the flop too with your stack size and the fact that opp is the second stack. He won't want to tangle with you with a big stack, and he will be as scared of the A as you are.

In this case, it is not a question of betting for information. Your hand has very little value on its own; your best chance of winning this pot is to bluff at it (likely make him fold a better hand). You would only check behind here if you had something like KK or QQ on this board - a hand that has value on its own but may be either way ahead or way behind (and you don't know which).

[bjsaust]

A c-bet is a bluff. Its a very effective bluff. When you raise PF you're saying 'I have a very good hand', when you c-bet after the flop you're saying "I still have a very good hand". What you actually have is meaningless. That only comes into play if you're called or raised.

Look at it another way. A standard c-bet for me is around 2/3 - 3/4 pot. Even if I have to give up every second hand, I'm in front. C-betting works MUCH more than 1 in every 2 times though.

I dont c-bet every flop. I'm very wary about c-betting any flop which is all lower than T. I'm also wary about c-betting any flop with 2 or more broadways that missed me entirely. A perfect flop for c-betting is a single broadway, you should never not c-bet one of these without an extremely good reason. Q high flop? Maybe you raised AQ, K high flop, KQ? You get the picture.

[elitemob]

Thanks for the explanation! So just out of curiosity ... what is your plan when you're being called on the cbet? Do you check-fold the turn (if you missed it) or do you try to double barrel (what if you get called again and miss the river too) ? I have had this problem a lot lately.

[bjsaust]

At low stakes most people wont fold any any flop they caught a part of if they call your c-bet. I very rarely double barrel in an STT. Some times I might are if I'm fairly sure opp is on a draw, or if a scare card comes. As a general rule though, opps who call your c-bet have enough of a hand that they'll call a double barrel as well at low stakes, so c/f is our best line. Because c-betting is such an effective move at low stakes, we're happy to drop them if called. Chances are our last 3 c-bets worked and our next 3 c-bets will work, so our 2/3 pot bet we just 'lost' is small fry in comparison.

[elitemob]

That's a gold mine of info about low buy-ins right there, thanks a lot. Now that I think about it, you're absolutely right, that's my experience as well. I really have to keep that in mind for the future. I suppose that's all gonna change when you gradually move up in stakes though.