Leak! Losing chips at 100/200 and 100/200/25

[Keilah]

I've been playing a lot of 18-player turbo SnG's lately and I find that I'm profitable at pretty much every blind level except 100/200 (actually, I was losing money here on the 45-player SnG's too). I think what's going on is that my stack here is a little too big to push preflop, but too small to do anything but fold or AI on the flop. Therefore I make a normal raise with my good hands, and fold the flop unless I hit (don't want to go AI on a mised flop when I know my late game is better than most opponents).
I know playing passively is costing me chips, but is it worth if it ensures me surviving to a later round where my skill advantage is bigger? I swear, those 6.50 players have NO idea how to play a small stack.

PS SitNGo Wizard's quiz function is probably the greatest thing ever.

[taipan168]

If you find yourself in the situation where you aren't deep enough to make a standard raise and c-bet on the flop but still give up if you have to, then you should be shoving preflop if you want to play.

There's nothing to say that 10x BB is the magic number at which anything above ISN'T a shove (although when you have <10x BB it most likely IS a shove if you want to play). In fact, you can justify open shoving up to 13.5-14x BB or so depending on position, stack sizes, cards and reads.

It's probably best to post some example hands for review.

[bjsaust]

I'll often just fold PF in this situation. Sure I get blinded down a bit, but thats better than giving up on the flop, or c-betting half my stack away.

Of course that could be a leak too.

Great thread though, identifying leaks is a good thing .

[Keilah]

Hah! Well guys, the suggestions you gave (start pushing with a slightly bigger stack, just fold until the blinds grow) are the two things I started doing to try to fix it. Not enough hands yet to know if it's working... but I'll keep you posted.
Thx Saust =]

[Skeeno]

Good question Keilah . .

I tend to tighten up during this stage aswell, but I agree with Taipan if you have a good playable hand but one that only flops something 33% of the time hand say AQ then I'll just shove it from time to time. Especially as we're usually at the final table at this stage and your unlikely to get called unless someone has a monster, fear of bubbling and all that. Everyone's generally in the same boat . . so take advantage and play without fear and more aggressively.

I'd also stick to playing in position more than normal and looking if needs to be just play far tighter in the early positions and really open up and abuse the blinds from the button/cut-off, again attacking the bubble situation. That however depends on stack sizes, player ability, sure helps if the BB is a rock when your on the button etc.

Fair to say I'm also looking to defend my blinds a fair amount during this stage and don't let anyone limp my BB esp if it's the SB or someone from the Button/CO. I'll respect an early limper more but have no trouble playing aggressively against a late limper. Also if it's folded around to me in the SB I'm pretty much raising any two vs the BB.

I will say though if your only struggling at the 100/200 level and profitable at every other level your doing something right!

[bjsaust]

Oh for sure, you still push your big hands. If I have AQ I probably push 12-13 BBs no worries. But if I have say K9o on the button with 12 BBs I fold, with 9 I might push.

[Skeeno]

But if I have say K9o on the button with 12 BBs I fold, with 9 I might push.

Fair amount depends on the players in the blinds, are they tight/passive, aggro, calling stations and on equivalent stacks in this situation. K9 isn't great but it's an above average hand and I'd probably be attacking them with this type of hand if its folded to me in the button, not saying I'd push with 12BBs but I wouldn't neccessarily flat out fold it.

What range are you raising from the button if it's folded around to you bjs?

[bjsaust]

With 12 BBs? K9o was probably my cutoff hand. KTo I'd push. QT+, KT+,A2+,22+.

None of this is from running ICM or stuff though, they're just my gutfeel range. I'm nervous about pushing 12BBs without an A, so I want two decent cards that could hit well if I'm called. I'm comfortable playing short stacked p/f poker, so I'd prefer to blind down a bit to that stage, than risk my tourney on mid-strength hands pushing > 12BBs. This rarely changes due to opps ranges, its my risk point for running into hands that almost anyone would call with.

Of course, logically if you're worried about being called, theres an argument for pushing stuff like 89s instead, since you're less likely to be dominated if called and have two live cards. I'm a high card junkie though .

Would be interesting to get Taipans thoughts on ranges in this spot.

[Skeeno]

I'd prefer to be pushing K9o than A2s because we're likely to get called by higher Aces and be dominated . . however with 12BBs I wouldn't neccessarily be reverting to push/fold mode from the button, I'd at times make the standard 2.75x raise if I'm going to play the hand, is that a mistake? Again a lot of it's dependent on the blinds stacks.

Note I will sometimes push a wide range from the Button . . because you can get looked up a fair amount, this hand below is a perfect example of pushing a top 10% holding from the button into a laggy blind. His call is pretty awful but goes to show that fishy blinds will look you up with a widish range

PokerStars Game #14619925819: Tournament #74133493, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2008/01/17 - 10:41:18 (ET)
Table '74133493 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: skeenobeener (2525 in chips)
Seat 2: daaboyzz (2415 in chips)
Seat 3: ssra (2700 in chips)
Seat 4: robin011 (1195 in chips)
Seat 5: BasBaas (1475 in chips)
Seat 6: MeLlamoKyle (5160 in chips)
Seat 7: Ben974 (3680 in chips)
Seat 8: richky80 (2225 in chips)
Seat 9: 75rams75 (5625 in chips)
skeenobeener: posts the ante 25
daaboyzz: posts the ante 25
ssra: posts the ante 25
robin011: posts the ante 25
BasBaas: posts the ante 25
MeLlamoKyle: posts the ante 25
Ben974: posts the ante 25
richky80: posts the ante 25
75rams75: posts the ante 25
daaboyzz: posts small blind 100
ssra: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skeenobeener [Qh Ad]
robin011: folds
BasBaas: folds
MeLlamoKyle: folds
Ben974: folds
richky80: folds
75rams75: folds
skeenobeener: raises 2300 to 2500 and is all-in
daaboyzz: folds
ssra: calls 2300
*** FLOP *** [2h 7s 3d]
*** TURN *** [2h 7s 3d] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [2h 7s 3d 3s] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ssra: shows [5d Ac] (a pair of Threes)
skeenobeener: shows [Qh Ad] (a pair of Threes - Ace+Queen kicker)
skeenobeener collected 5325 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5325 | Rake 0
Board [2h 7s 3d 3s 6d]
Seat 1: skeenobeener (button) showed [Qh Ad] and won (5325) with a pair of Threes
Seat 2: daaboyzz (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: ssra (big blind) showed [5d Ac] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 4: robin011 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BasBaas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MeLlamoKyle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Ben974 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: richky80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: 75rams75 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[bjsaust]

I can play that either way. If blinds have been aggressive I may standard raise planning to call a shove, but generally I just push it in and hope they call with Acrap.

[bjsaust]

I'd prefer to be pushing K9o than A2s because we're likely to get called by higher Aces and be dominated . . however with 12BBs I wouldn't neccessarily be reverting to push/fold mode from the button, I'd at times make the standard 2.75x raise if I'm going to play the hand, is that a mistake? Again a lot of it's dependent on the blinds stacks.

Heres the problem, lets put some numbers in to run it through. Lets say you have 2400 chips and the blinds are 100/200 (no antes). BB has you covered. You raise say 500 chips, and BB calls you. Pot is now 1100 chips, and you have 1900 behind. You make a conservative c-bet of 650 chips (600 just looks too weak), but BB pushes over. You now have to call 1250 chips behind, with an effective pot of 3000. Depending on reads and whether you got a piece of the flop, or some kind of draw or something, this can put you to a very hard decision. Even if you decide its an easy fold, you just lost half your stack on this hand.

[Skeeno]

True it can hurt us if we get called but I think continually laying down half decent holdings when folded around to us on the Button hurts us more. The BB would be first to act on the flop aswell if he calls, so we get to see his reaction, he can't obviously put us on crap holdings all the time, if he checks the flop, we can then bet/push.

I dunno maybe I'm more aggressive on the button/cut-off than I should be.

[bjsaust]

Or maybe I'm more passive then I should be .

I do think those half-decent holdings on button are probably the weakest point in my game atm. I do have trouble working out how to play them, so default to folding until the decisions get easier.

[Skeeno]

If your unsure what to do folding is always the best option and I wouldn't raise every time from the button, but it's always nice to continually raise someone's blind and then do it with AA, and see em get so frustrated by your previous raises they shove back at you! I guess what I'm saying is don't give the blinds a walk, because people sure as hell won't give you one.