Bankroll and earnings

[Jamjoe]

Its often said that cash games are where the money is but Im having trouble seeing why
Lets take a player with $2,500 BR
The common rules i see are 25BI for cash games and 50+ BI for SNGs

For arguements sake Ill use those figures for now this means our player is rolled for:
$100NL cash and $50 SNGs

Again using average numbers ive seen across forums estimated profits for a good player is:
2ptbb/100 at $100NL cash and
~10% ROI at $50 SNGs

Again lets say our player can successfully 8table at these winrates, plays an average of 65hands/hour at cash games and plays his SNGs in sets which last an hour (for calculations sake)
$/hr would be:

Cash: 520hands/hour with 2ptbb/100 = $20.80/hour
SNG: 8SNGs @ $50 and 10% ROI = $40/hour

So how are cash games considered to be better for money?
Perhaps if u could sustain 4ptbb/100 it would out do it, but how likely is 4ptbb/100?

[Pythonic]

Now subtract your SNG fees and tell me where you are at?

[Jamjoe]

Tournament fees are included in ROI, granted theres no $50 SNGs i was using $50 as a round number if u used $55 SNGs then
(55*8)*0.1 = $44/hr - granted using our 50BI rule he would be underrolled, so lets look at next lowest tournament at PStars.

$38 ($35+$3) gives $30.40/hour

[bjsaust]

Normal SnGs will take 1.5hrs to complete a set.

I'm not sure your returns represent equal edge in each scenario.

[spoonitnow]

At full ring 100nl cash a good player can reach at least 3 ptbb/100 without much problems playing way more than 8 tables. I know at 100nl I was making over $50/hour before bonuses.

Also, rakeback for cash is tremendously better than rakeback for SNGs, but that might be outside of the scope of the discussion.

[pgil]

and how big of an edge can you actually have in a SnG when you get to higher stakes?

I would imagine that the edges get thinner a lot faster as you move up the SnG ladder as compared to the cash game ladder, especially when you have so many more ways that your opponents can/will make mistakes in cash games.

[Jamjoe]

This is true pgil - i think ROI can drop to as little as 4% at $335 according to 2+2 while i guess a cash players return would not drop so significantly.

Anyway i was just looking for thougths on the matter - i guess rakeback/bonuses and pgil's comment about the higher stakes edges are what does it.

And spoon, i make it my long term goal to play at the same tables as you although Im not sure this would be a profitable idea

[DetroitHusling101]

10% ROI at the 55+5 Turbos on stars long term is not too realistic. If were talking non turbo/non-stars site than yeah possible.

Cash is where it's at. I wanna make the transition from SNG--->Cash but prob won't for awhile.

[Chopper]

lets not forget the intangibles...

- sit down when you want.
- leave when you are tired.
- easier to find fish and sit with them...by far.

those are just some.

its not like you can sit for a "3 hour shift" in SNGs. you go deep in one, and you have NO control of when you can go to the grocery store....or pick up the kids from daycare...lol.

[DetroitHusling101]

but pushing is an art

[spoonitnow]

This is true pgil - i think ROI can drop to as little as 4% at $335 according to 2+2 while i guess a cash players return would not drop so significantly.

Anyway i was just looking for thougths on the matter - i guess rakeback/bonuses and pgil's comment about the higher stakes edges are what does it.

And spoon, i make it my long term goal to play at the same tables as you although Im not sure this would be a profitable idea

I hate seeing stuff like this because it makes me feel guilty since I don't feel like I'm playing very high nor that I'm a very good player, but thanks and gl either way.

[daven]

And spoon, i make it my long term goal to play at the same tables as you although Im not sure this would be a profitable idea

interesting. I think there are better goals, like getting better, pwning levels, moving up, still getting better, etc... oh, and even better would be to be playing the same levels as spoon and have him scared to sit down at a table with you
it's the whole compete against a person vs yourself, i'm toying with this with respect to running times at the moment, and went through it for a while with climbing...
what are your basic long term poker goals spoon? I'm curious

[DaddyDeez]

id like to make the switch to cash someday also, but i cant help but think 6 max turbo sng's have good earning potential.

[spoonitnow]

And spoon, i make it my long term goal to play at the same tables as you although Im not sure this would be a profitable idea

interesting. I think there are better goals, like getting better, pwning levels, moving up, still getting better, etc... oh, and even better would be to be playing the same levels as spoon and have him scared to sit down at a table with you
it's the whole compete against a person vs yourself, i'm toying with this with respect to running times at the moment, and went through it for a while with climbing...
what are your basic long term poker goals spoon? I'm curious

I really just wanted to make enough at poker to put me through school until I got my Master's so I could teach math at a community college or maybe a small university, but now I probably make more hourly-wise than I'll make doing that, so I don't know. I'm kind of at a weird point with poker and all of that. I feel like I could become a big earner eventually if I just keep working at my game, but I'm not sure if I want to yet.

Honestly my big long term goal or whatever you want to call it was to make 100k in a year, which at this point is too easy of a goal to make for 2008 and if I keep that as my goal I'll get lazy and get worse. For now I just have a really rough idea of how I want to proceed this year.

[Jamjoe]

Well its not my main goal daven, lets say it would be the icing on top of the cake - the cake being all the learning and bettering myself i need to do in order to beat those levels

Im just a little microstakes player atm - but now im playing alot more than i used to and more importantly learning alot more from the forums than i used to

[Chopper]

spoon, you are treading into dangerous waters now.

you have a choice that you need to sort out...w/ long term ramifications.

the money is tempting to chase, true. you are making more than you will likely make as a teacher, true. but, is money everything? some say yes. some say no. that is your dilema.

chase the dollar (for family independence w/ its own sacrifices), or chase the SATISFACTION of making a difference in lives.

tough one for a college-aged guy. but, one we ALL have to go through. part of the maturation process.

[deacon_bluez]

spoon, you are treading into dangerous waters now.

you have a choice that you need to sort out...w/ long term ramifications.

the money is tempting to chase, true. you are making more than you will likely make as a teacher, true. but, is money everything? some say yes. some say no. that is your dilema.

chase the dollar (for family independence w/ its own sacrifices), or chase the SATISFACTION of making a difference in lives.

tough one for a college-aged guy. but, one we ALL have to go through. part of the maturation process.

As a college instructor myself, I have to agree with what Chopper is saying here. If teaching is your passion (and apparently a talent), is there a suitable compromise? I know from experience that you can be a college instructor, even a very good one, without it taking the 60+ hour weeks that some other professions might require, and I think you would love your job. You couldn't play poker full time, but you could still devote significant hours to it and have a foot in each world. Would playing 2, or maybe 3-4, hours per day while teaching be acceptable?

And I think you are at the age where relationships and family might be in your future (please, PLEASE find a wife who completely accepts your playing...), so that's one more thing to think about.

So "dangerous waters" might be overstating it just a bit, but muddy waters with potential rewards or drawbacks sounds about right.

[spoonitnow]

spoon, you are treading into dangerous waters now.

you have a choice that you need to sort out...w/ long term ramifications.

the money is tempting to chase, true. you are making more than you will likely make as a teacher, true. but, is money everything? some say yes. some say no. that is your dilema.

chase the dollar (for family independence w/ its own sacrifices), or chase the SATISFACTION of making a difference in lives.

tough one for a college-aged guy. but, one we ALL have to go through. part of the maturation process.

Not really. I'm getting my degrees either way. Besides, I can always do both.

[JustMe]

lets not forget the intangibles...

- sit down when you want.
- leave when you are tired.
- easier to find fish and sit with them...by far.

those are just some.

its not like you can sit for a "3 hour shift" in SNGs. you go deep in one, and you have NO control of when you can go to the grocery store....or pick up the kids from daycare...lol.

This is the biggest reason I play cash vs. SNG's/MTT's. I'm a mother of 4 and sometimes I can't play for more than a 1/2 hour here and there before they're bugging me for a ride or just plain driving me crazy!

If I know I'll have at LEAST 3 or 4 hours to myself, I'll register in a MTT, but otherwise I just don't have the time. I don't do too well at SNG's for whatever reason.

[Robb]

lets not forget the intangibles...

- sit down when you want.
- leave when you are tired.
- easier to find fish and sit with them...by far.

those are just some.

its not like you can sit for a "3 hour shift" in SNGs. you go deep in one, and you have NO control of when you can go to the grocery store....or pick up the kids from daycare...lol.

This is the biggest reason I play cash vs. SNG's/MTT's. I'm a mother of 4 and sometimes I can't play for more than a 1/2 hour here and there before they're bugging me for a ride or just plain driving me crazy!

If I know I'll have at LEAST 3 or 4 hours to myself, I'll register in a MTT, but otherwise I just don't have the time. I don't do too well at SNG's for whatever reason.

Awesome post JustMe! Glad to see you in the forums.

I play mostly in evenings while twin toddlers are (not) falling asleep. So the advantage of having the "sit out" button be neutral EV in cash games is important. I can jump up from the computer to deal with whatever post-bedtime mayhem is occurring.

Spoon - you've heard my thoughts already, but add this to your calculus. Professors/instructors gets TONS of time off. And you don't have to teach summers to get full time bennies like health insurance. Your 9-month contract comes w/ insurance and retirement, so any summer work is gravy $$. You could basically play poker full time 5 months a year (Dec, May, June, July, half-Aug + Spring Break/Thanksgiving) and teach math + do part-time poker the other 7. And have perqs and bennies which are MUCHO valuable if and when you start having baby spoons.

[spoonitnow]

lets not forget the intangibles...

- sit down when you want.
- leave when you are tired.
- easier to find fish and sit with them...by far.

those are just some.

its not like you can sit for a "3 hour shift" in SNGs. you go deep in one, and you have NO control of when you can go to the grocery store....or pick up the kids from daycare...lol.

This is the biggest reason I play cash vs. SNG's/MTT's. I'm a mother of 4 and sometimes I can't play for more than a 1/2 hour here and there before they're bugging me for a ride or just plain driving me crazy!

If I know I'll have at LEAST 3 or 4 hours to myself, I'll register in a MTT, but otherwise I just don't have the time. I don't do too well at SNG's for whatever reason.

Awesome post JustMe! Glad to see you in the forums.

I play mostly in evenings while twin toddlers are (not) falling asleep. So the advantage of having the "sit out" button be neutral EV in cash games is important. I can jump up from the computer to deal with whatever post-bedtime mayhem is occurring.

Spoon - you've heard my thoughts already, but add this to your calculus. Professors/instructors gets TONS of time off. And you don't have to teach summers to get full time bennies like health insurance. Your 9-month contract comes w/ insurance and retirement, so any summer work is gravy $$. You could basically play poker full time 5 months a year (Dec, May, June, July, half-Aug + Spring Break/Thanksgiving) and teach math + do part-time poker the other 7. And have perqs and bennies which are MUCHO valuable if and when you start having baby spoons.

That's pretty much what I was talking about.