Correct Play

[Thunder]

10 seater SNG. 6 left. I am joint chip leader (3750) . Blinds 50/100.

Loose/fishy type raises to 300 UTG and I, in 4th position, call with A2 clubs. I do so with flush/straight opportunities and think that if villain likes his hand he will marry it as he did before when he called an all in on str8/flush(hearts) flop with QA (spades and clubs) to spike a Q on the river and beat opponents top pair and flush draw.

All else fold.

Flop comes 6c 6d 7c and I am sure he missed. Opp checks, I bet 500 into a pot of 750, he calls.

Turn is 8h, he checks, I bet 570 (meant to be 750), he calls and I put him on QA or KA like before.

River comes Qc and makes my nut flush. I bet 1000, he raises all in, I call, he flips over QQ for a full house.

I knew he didn't have a straight, trips or full house on flop which is why I kept betting.

Was i right play or was I as fishy as he was previously?

Thx

[Im_new]

I do not make this call PF.

As played, I shut down after the flop bet. This guy feels like a call station who will call any and every bluff you attempt to make with two OCs. I check behind on the turn because any PP has you beaten, which considering his LAGGYness, is very likely in his raising range, I'd guess 77+. I take the free river card with hopes of spiking a club on the river. The river bet/call AI is obvious, but very unfortunate.

Now that i think about it more, I think the stack sizes should play a role in here somewhere, as well as the aggressiveness and looseness of the rest of the table. What was his stack size? And what stakes is this?

[Thunder]

Sorry, I didn't make it clear, he had the same stack as me - 3750. I watched him donk his 1500 to 900 when he went all in with QA to go to 1800. Then he suckered someone else by calling an all in pre flop with trash. He worked up to 4200 before spewing chips again down to 3500 before getting to 3750.

I knew he missed the flop and though I only had the draw, chose to represent trips or pocket 7s for a fh. He missed as he woulda gone all in as he did when his KA flopped a K.

I thought broadway SCs, mid pair or, more likely AQ/KA. Either way, I chose to represent far more than what he was holding. He'd also seen me felt 2 players by going all in with very strong hands, including SCs like 45 and 78 so he *should* have known that a flop of 667 could be a monster for me. And would be considering the aggression I displayed.

nb: I did go through a phase of playing any unsuited ace just because it's a suited ace but this wasn't the case here. His range was very loose and with the straight and flush draw possibilities, felt it was worth a look as it would be heads up, and as I had position on him, could push him off if required (assuming he didn't have QQ , of course).

[GatorJH]

I think that if villain likes his hand he will marry it as he did before when he called an all in on str8/flush(hearts) flop with QA (spades and clubs) to spike a Q on the river and beat opponents top pair and flush draw.

I watched him donk his 1500 to 900 when he went all in with QA to go to 1800. Then he suckered someone else by calling an all in pre flop with trash.

I chose to represent trips or pocket 7s for a fh.

Either way, I chose to represent far more than what he was holding.

he *should* have known that a flop of 667 could be a monster for me.

I could push him off if required .

Do you see the problem with your thought process?

Donks have no clue what you are "representing"

Donks don't notice ANYTHING other than their cards.

Bluffing donks who don't have a fold button is spewing chips.

Was i right play or was I as fishy as he was previously?

No and yes, respectively

[drmcboy]

Gator OTM, I'll just add that if you posted this implying he should have folded his QQ on the flop/turn, you really need to re look at when you can get someone to lay down. The poor play(s) he made were slow playing QQ on this board, he should just bet the flop then call your push or shove the turn.

[taipan168]

OK, there are quite a few things to discuss here.

Preflop: I almost never call this preflop for a number of reasons.
- Firstly, I do not think that you are deep enough to call opp's raise if you are playing for two pair/flush/straight possibilities, even considering the implied odds. You just cannot win enough chips when you do hit to make up for the times you miss your draw and have to fold the flop.
- Secondly, if somebody still to act shoves over you burned 300 chips for nothing.
- Thirdly, and although you say you are playing for flush/straight opportunities, are you really going to completely give up on an A high flop? If not, then you could lose a lot of chips if you're outkicked.

Flop: I would check behind every time here. You have the nut flush draw and opp just offered you a free card - take it! Opp may have "missed" the flop in that it didn't improve his hand, but if he has an overpair he is not going away.

Turn: Again, I would not fire again. Opp called your big flop bet and a donk like this will call with even strange hands like A7 that nonetheless have you beat. Take the free card.

River: As played, I don't think you can avoid going broke here but if you had checked the flop and turn, maybe opp would have re-raised rather than shoved, thereby saving some of your stack.

Another important general principle here is when you are the big stack or second stack, do not f**k with the other big stack unless you have a big hand. This applies on your hand preflop, on the flop and on the turn.

[Andrew]

I've been here before.

Preflop:
10 seat SnG with 6 left pretty much you have to act as if there's still 10. You're too far away from the bubble (I know it's 2 places but that's still aways away). Don't play Axs. I have and gotten myself busted out of too many MTTs because of it. It just gets us into too much trouble if we get unlucky/miss.

Flop:
You've got a flush draw on a paired board. He checks after raising PF which allows us to fire into him. The call makes me worried here. We've been c/called on this flop. The only hands which do this are:

*A draw.
*Trips.
*2 pair.
*Full house (he could have raised with 77 PF).

Out of 4 hands which could call us we are behind to 3 of them.

Turn:
Checking with now a straight draw out there and another possibility of a full house. Like many of the experienced guys here talk about, we have to work what will call us if we fire another barrel and unless he is a complete idiot/on that draw we're completely smashed.

River:
We have to check. If we win with the flush, great. But with two c/calls behind us AND a raise PF he doesn't call unless he beats us. The reraise AI makes this even more certain. The one thing I've learned is to take a breather whenever someone pushes AI against me, there's a reason behind it and it usually means they've hit their card.

So unless I've gone completely on tilt because of the way I've played then I'm folding here.

If anyone wants to critique my thinking, I'd love to hear it.

[mcatdog]

I thought broadway SCs, mid pair or, more likely AQ/KA. Either way, I chose to represent far more than what he was holding.

I think you were representing a draw or a bluff more than a monster, and it's not good to represent a bluff when that's what you have. If you don't mind, prove me wrong by posting any hand you've ever played where you flopped a monster and bet 3/4 pot on the flop and 1/3 pot on the turn. When I see someone take this line, it's almost always a weak player saying "I have a draw, please let me see the next card for cheap" or occasionally a terrible player on a total bluff, but almost never a monster. Sorry to be harsh.

[taipan168]

Preflop:
10 seat SnG with 6 left pretty much you have to act as if there's still 10. You're too far away from the bubble (I know it's 2 places but that's still aways away). Don't play Axs. I have and gotten myself busted out of too many MTTs because of it. It just gets us into too much trouble if we get unlucky/miss.

Agreed, I take it this is a long way of saying fold preflop?

Flop:
You've got a flush draw on a paired board. He checks after raising PF which allows us to fire into him. The call makes me worried here. We've been c/called on this flop. The only hands which do this are:

*A draw.
*Trips.
*2 pair.
*Full house (he could have raised with 77 PF).

Out of 4 hands which could call us we are behind to 3 of them.

I would check behind here every time rather than betting. Opp offered us a free card to hit our draw, why wouldn't we take it?

Turn:
Checking with now a straight draw out there and another possibility of a full house. Like many of the experienced guys here talk about, we have to work what will call us if we fire another barrel and unless he is a complete idiot/on that draw we're completely smashed.

Which is why we check behind again, we still have our draw and opp offered us another free card.

River:
We have to check. If we win with the flush, great. But with two c/calls behind us AND a raise PF he doesn't call unless he beats us. The reraise AI makes this even more certain. The one thing I've learned is to take a breather whenever someone pushes AI against me, there's a reason behind it and it usually means they've hit their card.

So unless I've gone completely on tilt because of the way I've played then I'm folding here.

I disagree with check/folding - although I am not delighted about going broke with the nut flush on a paired board, there are SO many hands that would play like this that we beat, that I believe that checking (and even more so check/folding) is losing a lot of value. Here are some hands that opp might play like this:
- Lower flush
- Trip 6s
- Slowplayed high pocket pair like KK/AA
- Under pocket pair like 99-JJ
- Something completely retarded like A7

I believe that we have to bet/call the push on the river and pay opp if he/she has a full house.

[TLR]

I would fold pre, A2 is too easily dominated
once he checked the flop I dont mind firing a bet, but when he calls you cant assume he is going anywhere with another bet, and you are definitly behind, even if he has AQ and he called the flop bet he will call the turn bet as well most of the time
With the nut flush on river I would go broke any day.

Another important general principle here is when you are the big stack or second stack, do not f**k with the other big stack unless you have a big hand. This applies on your hand preflop, on the flop and on the turn.

QFT[/quote]

[Thunder]

Thx guys.


Taipan, as always you make total sense and really highlighted major flaws, thx. It also made quite a *groan* moment when reading

A thought though, had I played the way you suggest (which is correct), then there is still a good chance that villain would have gone all in on the river as I can't see myself not throwing a bet out.

As I called his raise (or worse, if I had opened for a raise) wouldn't checking 2 streets indicate weakness and leave me open to be attacked with nothing? I am not just talking about this hand but in other situations. I take advantage all day long when an ace hits and the betting goes cold. What are your thoughts?

I always get thrown by the "whatever will call your bet will be better than yours" train of thought, as Andrew suggested, because this isn't true too often at my level. They marry their hand and they aren't letting go. Great for busting AA with 2 pair.


Mcat, I know what you're saying and completely understand the rationale. In terms of betting a monster, I often do bet big if I see an immediate threat - like I have flopped a straight but there are 2 hearts on the board. If I was to get action on a flopped full house, I would very often move right over the top as I am afraid of a bigger full house - which has happened surprisingly often and would have occured here, had I actually held 77. I very rarely get to flop a monster where the rest of the flop is safe.

Overall, through you guys, my suspicions were confirmed and that I played this hand badly. There is still a sense of bittersweet about it though as I knew he didn't have better than a pair and that my gamble did pay off to land the flush. I just didn't see the Q making the full house

Thx for the analysis guys. I guess I chose the wrong person to semi bluff. The wrong time to see the bluff to the end, the wrong way to play the hand and the wrong cards too. Oh well, every cloud has..........an American spy plane hiding behind it.

[taipan168]

As I called his raise (or worse, if I had opened for a raise) wouldn't checking 2 streets indicate weakness and leave me open to be attacked with nothing? I am not just talking about this hand but in other situations. I take advantage all day long when an ace hits and the betting goes cold. What are your thoughts?

It is true that if you check two streets that does indicate weakness and leaves you open to be attacked, but the question is, if you bet, how likely are you to win the pot? This is very dependent on reads on your opp. If you are on a draw and bet, this is far more likely to work against a tight opp than a calling station. Against calling stations it's far better to take the free card to hit your draw and start betting aggressively if you do hit.

If I was to get action on a flopped full house, I would very often move right over the top as I am afraid of a bigger full house - which has happened surprisingly often and would have occured here, had I actually held 77. I very rarely get to flop a monster where the rest of the flop is safe.

This is wrong thinking - if you flopped a full house then somebody with a higher pocket pair only has two outs on the turn and river to beat you:

Board: 6c 6d 7c
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      
Hand 0: 	91.313%  	91.31% 	00.00% 	    { 77 }
Hand 1: 	08.687%  	08.69% 	00.00% 	    { AA }

Coming over the top is not necessarily a bad move, but you would do it because you believe that opp will call you with a worse hand rather than because you need to "protect" your hand against being drawn out on.

[Andrew]

Tai,

I didn't actually see all of your reply so we are thinking along the same lines here. My analysis was actually at Thunder's play, not towards what you was saying to do and I completely agree with everything you've said apart from the endplay.

We have the nut-flush. Against a guy who has bet-c/c-c/c-r/r AI against us.

PF: Shows aggression.
F: Check - So he either missed, hit big or has a draw.
T: Check - Missed, big or draw.
R: Reraised AI - STRENGTH.

If he was the one who was pushing against us then I'd say that the river AI reraise could be a semi-bluff but if the way the hand played out it's exactly what we would do if we flopped a set/boat. I just can't see, with the way the hand has played out, why we would want to call this reraise. Part of learning is to know how to lay down a big hand, and we're either beat, against a total bluff or a complete dumbnut. Do we really want to take the risk so early in a tournament?

[taipan168]

Tai,

I didn't actually see all of your reply so we are thinking along the same lines here. My analysis was actually at Thunder's play, not towards what you was saying to do and I completely agree with everything you've said apart from the endplay.

We have the nut-flush. Against a guy who has bet-c/c-c/c-r/r AI against us.

PF: Shows aggression.
F: Check - So he either missed, hit big or has a draw.
T: Check - Missed, big or draw.
R: Reraised AI - STRENGTH.

If he was the one who was pushing against us then I'd say that the river AI reraise could be a semi-bluff but if the way the hand played out it's exactly what we would do if we flopped a set/boat. I just can't see, with the way the hand has played out, why we would want to call this reraise. Part of learning is to know how to lay down a big hand, and we're either beat, against a total bluff or a complete dumbnut. Do we really want to take the risk so early in a tournament?

This is where buyin becomes important. If I was playing against a winning regular at mid-high buyins (never mind that neither of us would have gotten to this spot up to the river) then I agree with your line of c/c or c/f the river. However, at low buyins against a donk, they are just SO many other hands that they could have that we beat, again:
- Lower flush
- Trip 6s
- Slowplayed high pocket pair like KK/AA
- Under pocket pair like 99-JJ
- Something completely retarded like A7

[Andrew]

Tai,

I didn't actually see all of your reply so we are thinking along the same lines here. My analysis was actually at Thunder's play, not towards what you was saying to do and I completely agree with everything you've said apart from the endplay.

We have the nut-flush. Against a guy who has bet-c/c-c/c-r/r AI against us.

PF: Shows aggression.
F: Check - So he either missed, hit big or has a draw.
T: Check - Missed, big or draw.
R: Reraised AI - STRENGTH.

If he was the one who was pushing against us then I'd say that the river AI reraise could be a semi-bluff but if the way the hand played out it's exactly what we would do if we flopped a set/boat. I just can't see, with the way the hand has played out, why we would want to call this reraise. Part of learning is to know how to lay down a big hand, and we're either beat, against a total bluff or a complete dumbnut. Do we really want to take the risk so early in a tournament?

This is where buyin becomes important. If I was playing against a winning regular at mid-high buyins (never mind that neither of us would have gotten to this spot up to the river) then I agree with your line of c/c or c/f the river. However, at low buyins against a donk, they are just SO many other hands that they could have that we beat, again:
- Lower flush
- Trip 6s
- Slowplayed high pocket pair like KK/AA
- Under pocket pair like 99-JJ
- Something completely retarded like A7

I can see what you're saying, and in that regard it does make sense. But wouldn't it have been better if this was 4th and 5th place fighting it out rather than 5th and 6th? I just feel that a) should never have gotten to the river in the first place and b) with 6 players left there's plenty of action and room left to be able to grow our stack after a huge laydown instead of going for a possibly great call. I guess it comes down to whether we are willing to risk our "tournie" life pre-bubble or not.

[taipan168]

I can see what you're saying, and in that regard it does make sense. But wouldn't it have been better if this was 4th and 5th place fighting it out rather than 5th and 6th? I just feel that a) should never have gotten to the river in the first place and b) with 6 players left there's plenty of action and room left to be able to grow our stack after a huge laydown instead of going for a possibly great call. I guess it comes down to whether we are willing to risk our "tournie" life pre-bubble or not.

It is not a question of risking our tourney life pre-bubble/early in the game or whatever. We just have to make the plays that have the highest expected value. Sure, the fact that it is two chip leaders butting heads does change the equation a bit, but pot odds and likely hand ranges are more important on the river.

If I'm reading the HH correctly, Hero has 1380 chips behind after betting the river and the pot after opp shoves is 5270, so Hero is getting 3.8 to 1 on the call. Therefore, Hero only needs to have the best hand a bit more than 1 time in 5 for this to be a good call (say 1 time in 4.5 to take the ICM effect into account). You can't fold getting those sorts of odds with the nut flush against an opponent who definitely has something other than a full house at least 1 time in every 4.5.