Adjustments $22 and above normals

[bjsaust]

Finding the $22s a lot tougher than the $11s. Not surprising I know, but definately the steepest increase in difficulty I've seen. For those who have been there, done that, any advice on adjustments you'd make? I have made some, but rather than post them, would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

[fjuanl]

People start playing tighter during bubbles so you can steal relentlessly from most players. I dont think you need to change anything from your early to mid-game play though. You can do a lot of accumulating if you play well when its 4-5 handed

[drmcboy]

generally, and it has been a while, altough I still play lots of cheap MTTs so I'm not totally out of touch:

<20 - value town

20 - start taking advantage of tight passives, still lots of goofs, occasional good player. Most decent players at this level probably have 15 tables going, play accordingly.

30 - almost all tight, bet bet bet, sometimes there will be good players, mostly just tight, not really TAGG. These are the people who will declare there is no scenario in which they will get their chips in in the first two levels with TPTK or worse.

50 - mix of all types, also plenty of rich goofs who look at the 50s are entry level (ty god). Anyone playing 50s for more than a week or two and winning is doing something right. Some of the guys I look up in the 45 man 55s on OPR would turn your hair grey.

100+ - maybe two laggs that get it in on the turn of the third hand with OESD + pair vs FD and an overcard, rest are solid TAGGs hoping to beat the rake. One of the LAGGs wins with K2 vs JJ.

The only adjustment that I think you need to make is start trying to discard the idea that there are adjustments you can generically make. What would one be? "Open up from the CO"? Can you hear how silly that sounds? "People in 30 dollar SNGs don't call raises with AT from the BB". Adjust at the table, not before you get there.

I see 1 post a week where someone says, "Well, at these buy ins they will call or shove anything". But as I said above, people get a lot more aggressive up higher - they get implied odds, they get FE, they get position, they understand pot odds (at least they think they do). Maybe you see less hopeless or really obvious bluffs but you see more semi bluffs, more bluffs into awkward boards, more gear changes, yadda. I went into ramble mode but the point is, prepare as best you can, and then play poker, same as at the penny tables.

Also, define "tougher" and describe your sample size.

[GatorJH]

One of the things that drmcboy pointed out that really rings true is don't come into a tournament with pre-conceived notions. Even at the $22's there is a big difference in playing styles between tournaments. Some are filled with LAGGY's and we get down to 5 people before the 50/100 level and others are full of Tight asses and we have 7-8 people left when the antes kick in.

Another thing that I try to notice (because I am typically playing 4 tables at a time) is who is mulit-tabling. Although that doesn't mean they are good players I do tend to give them more credibility than the average Joe.

[bjsaust]

Its not that big of a sample, but its taking significantly longer to get to the bubble, and usually a lot longer to break the bubble. I've had a couple of tables still 8 handed when the blinds reach 100/200. My 'tight is right' approach often results in blinding down more than I usually would. With those fuller tables, even once I start getting short, I'm generally seeing raises in front of me when I'm in LP, meaning I tend not to get a lot of blind stealing opportunitiess unless I get dealt the right cards. Interesting that you mention MTTs, because I have the same issue there. I struggle to adjust to a small stack at a full table. What I'm used to is by the time I get short the table is shorthanded.

[bjsaust]

The only adjustment that I think you need to make is start trying to discard the idea that there are adjustments you can generically make. What would one be? "Open up from the CO"? Can you hear how silly that sounds? "People in 30 dollar SNGs don't call raises with AT from the BB". Adjust at the table, not before you get there.

Thanks btw. I think I get your point. I guess the adjustment I need to make, is to be prepared to adjust on a game by game basis, whereas at the $11s (and below), I could run good by playing just one gameplan every single game.

[FlyingSaucy]

Those are all good points already made. The important thing is that you should move up if your roll supports it and you should challenge yourself to play a better game. Being a nit doesn't pay off as handsomely the higher you get, and at some point it is probably less than break even. Folding too much typically isn't considered a leak in low levels, it's lauded as a solid foundation to build on.

[drmcboy]

yep, exactly.

One of the main reasons the BR guidelines tend to help people is that you can start trying to forget about the money. I'm not sure whether you're actively thinking "These guys are good, they put up 20 bucks" but probably when you play a hand bad you associate it with the increased dollar amount rather than just realizing you played it bad.

Chew on this - the 105 45 mans don't fill much, especially during american afternoons when I'm playing a lot, but in my limited sample they are much tighter than the 50s.

Also, if you dropped back down to the 5s, would you try to go back to the way you played at that level?

[bjsaust]

Nah, I'm not actively thinking they're good because of the stakes. In fact so far from my sample of approx 30 games theres only been 1 guy whos stood out as really good (and I was happy to take him on knowing that, it was fun). I also dont think theres been many hands I played badly, and those I did were simple mistakes I realised (eg. not letting go of 2 pair on a 4 to a straight board).

Its purely that I'm noticing a different style of game, and I dont think my standard game from lower levels is neccessarily the best way for me to play them.

Dont get me wrong, whilst I say they're tougher, I'm still beating them atm. I'm not posting because I'm losing money and my BRs taking a hit. I'm posting because I think I need to adjust to these tighter games, and have only had limited success doing so, so far.

Theres still pleny of poor players at the $22s, and most times I bundle out I've got my money in ahead, or walked into a monster in a forgivable manner.

I dont know what the correct answer is, but if I dropped back down I probably would play much the same game I did at the time, because that game worked quite well for me, although inevitably it wouldnt be exactly the same because I'm used to looking for edges I didnt need to earlier.

[bjsaust]

Gah, maybe I just need to review my game more often. Went through some of my 'trouble' games, and I played like crap. Played much too tightly from SB and button shortstacked.

eg: http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-2666.html

I thought I wasnt given a chance to play shortstacked poker much, but theres a heap of clearly +ev opps I folded in that.

[GatorJH]

Gah, maybe I just need to review my game more often. Went through some of my 'trouble' games, and I played like crap. Played much too tightly from SB and button shortstacked.

eg: http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-2666.html

I thought I wasnt given a chance to play shortstacked poker much, but theres a heap of clearly +ev opps I folded in that.

I just glanced at the tourney and there were at least 4-5 spots where you missed oppty's to pick up the blinds. I also noticed that it looked like there was a calling station just to your right at the table. I am not sure how that was playing into your thought process, but there may have also been opportunities to snap off his weak holdings AND pickup the blinds.

I will put in more detailed thoughts on specific hands in a little while.

[GatorJH]

OK, here we go

Hand 1 - T's is on that edge for me, but against 3 limpers I probably would have raised it up to 100 pre-flop. That flop was nasty though.

Hand 3 - I prolly would have C-bet that but your line isn't terrible either.

BB (M = 53.33; c+r+f+f+f+f+f+r+F) -how big was the raise here?

SB (M = 20.33; f+f+f+f+f+F) - At 50/100 I would have raised with this to take the BB. You had not played a single hand (outside of the BB's for the last 13 hands so your raise should have gotten some respect).

Hand 9 - At these levels don't let the SB limp when you have an Ace in the BB.

Hand 10 - HUH? Was the push a mistake? Your stack is WAY too deep to push here.

Hand 11 - I think your push on Hand 10 cost you this as you went from that to a 2.5x raise, which looks really weak.

Hand 12 - you fold AJo to a re-raise when you had good position then called with KJo when you were OOP. I think you got these two hands backwards.

CO (M = 7.78; f+F) - Push
SB (M = 5.83; f+f+f+F) - Push
BU (M = 4.50; f+f+F) - This is close, but may be a push also
BU (M = 3.50; f+F) - Push
SB (M = 3.83; f+f+F) - Maybe a push??

I would run all of these through SNGPT to see if any of them are calls and/or pushes. If you don't have SNGPT send the raw file to me and I will check them for you.
K 8 UTG (M = 3.25; F)
6 J BB (M = 3.19; f+r+f+F)
9 Q SB (M = 2.63; f+p+F)
8 T BU (M = 2.31; p+F)
7 5 UTG (M = 2.25; F)
5 T BB (M = 2.19; f+f+r+F)
J Q SB (M = 1.63; r+f+F)
Q UTG (M = 2.25; F)
6 4 BB (M = 2.19; f+f+r+F)

[bjsaust]

Yeah, it wasnt really posted for review, the second half in particular is probably the worst I've played in a long time. I plan to drop back to 4 and do a lot more reviewing till I sort this shit out.

TT - folded - reraise was to 180 meaning I didnt have odds to call for set value. With a limper and the original raiser still to come I felt it safer to fold than play it as a premium hand (correctly so, orig raiser 4-bet pre).

Hand 9 (A2o) - Never quite sure what to do here, I guess assuming the completion is weak is generally right.

Hand 10 (JTo) - I'm in the SB and BB only has 8 BBs left after paying the blinds.

Hand 11 I fold because I give him credit for having a solid hand to 3-bet me here. Hand 12 I call because its just getting silly when he does it twice in a row. If I hit either a K or J I'm getting it in on the flop.


As for all the rest, yes lots of those were pushes I missed, so ultimately it had nothing to do with the level of competition and more with how poorly I played. I do think I let the rest of them run over me a bit when I was short, in particular hands like:

9 Q SB (M = 2.63; f+p+F)
J Q SB (M = 1.63; r+f+F)

I think were calls.

[GatorJH]

sounds like your run of cold deck is starting to get to you and if they have been like the hand last night I could see why.

[bjsaust]

Which hand was that?

I think its a bit the opposite actually. I stopped reviewing my play during my hot streak, and obviously some leaks crept in, some nasty ones. Played much better today (I think, need to review), but ran into the wrong hands a couple of times. Will post some up for review.

[JeffreyGB]

I think the $20 level may be the level where you start to lose significant value by running too many tables, as it is certainly the level where you start to be able to develop powerful, accurate, reliable reads on your opponents.

[bjsaust]

Already today I've found I've run better, whether its just sample size, dropping back to 4 tables, or recognising some leaks I'm not sure. Placed ITM on 4 of 4 just now.

[drmcboy]

20s must be easier than 10s

[bjsaust]

Whys that?

My first session 6-tabling the $11s I placed in all 6 . My biggest single BR increase of any set including some nice runs in the $22s.

I ran 80% ROI over 40 games in the $11s. I know thats largely +ve variance though.

[FlyingSaucy]

20s must be easier than 10s

[GatorJH]

Already today I've found I've run better, whether its just sample size, dropping back to 4 tables, or recognising some leaks I'm not sure. Placed ITM on 4 of 4 just now.

I run 4 tables at the $22's and it seems to be the perfect amount as I am able to supplement my HUD stats with some specific reads.