$27 JJ early 4 handed undercard flop

[rowey]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1270)
UTG+1 (t1430)
MP1 (t1340)
MP2 (t1470)
Hero (t1440)
CO (t2100)
Button (t1530)
SB (t1420)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t120, 1 fold, MP2 calls t120, Hero calls t120, 2 folds, SB calls t105, 1 fold.

Flop: (t510) 5, 3, 8 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets t300, [color=#CC3333]Hero???

No reads.

[fjuanl]

This would be tougher if original raiser made this bet, but I think I'd shove against what could easily be 2 spades, 8x, or 99-TT

[GatorJH]

[color=#CC3333]Hero???

Well, we know you bet here (in the future don't forget to take out the color statement.

As for the scneario, personally I would have re-raised pre-flop here up to about 500. On the flop I hate this situation. With the original raiser checking MP2 may decide to take a stab at this with some weak holding or even a flush draw, or it could be a flopped set or slow played big PP.

Maybe I am too tight here, but with 4 people seeing this flop (increasing the chance that someone outflopped you), minimal chance at my hand improving and the fact that it is very early in the tournament I would probably fold here more often than call.

[taipan168]

Somewhat tough spot at a $27 since this is exactly how I would play a set, and SB and UTG+1 are still to act. Reads would certainly be very helpful.

That said, I think I call the bet and see what happens on the turn, with the intention of getting it in if any of the following happens - a) opp checks b) we spike a J c) another non-spade undercard comes.

[drmcboy]

Someday I am going to challenge you "play JJ like 22" people to actually write up this "strategy" since it seems like none of you think it through at all. If you didn't know what to do on this flop with this action, you shouldn't be calling pre flop.

anyway, move in pre flop or raise to ~500.

on the flop I guess move in, but again, you should already know. You either called just for a set or for a set/overpair, you have one and not the other and the pot is just perfect to move in, or fold. Any PP likes this flop and there are 8000 draws out so to me it's a clear shove, but I wouldn't be here.

[bjsaust]

I agree with drmcboy here, you play PPs either as set and forget, or as premium hands. JJ is a premium hand, I play it as such. That said, when you called the flop you either said in your head 'set or forget', or you said 'get it in if all unders'. You must have had a plan. If not, you need to slow down pre-flop and start coming up with a plan first.

[GatorJH]

Let me clarify that the major reason I could see a fold here is that three other players saw a flop here.

I TOTALLY agree with the comments that JJ is a premium hand and should be played as that. That is why I said I would have re-raised this pre-flop to 500.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, and thats my point (to the OP, not you). If the fact that four people saw the flop here is a concern to you, then that indicates you were only playing for set value. If not, you might as well just fold pre (which would be terrible). OP should have an easy decision here based upon his reasoning when he flat called PF.

[taipan168]

Someday I am going to challenge you "play JJ like 22" people to actually write up this "strategy" since it seems like none of you think it through at all. If you didn't know what to do on this flop with this action, you shouldn't be calling pre flop.

anyway, move in pre flop or raise to ~500.

I actually didn't comment on preflop, but I accept your challenge! I'll put together a post when I get time, should be an interesting discussion. That said, with the cold caller I don't mind re-raising or shoving preflop.

on the flop I guess move in, but again, you should already know. You either called just for a set or for a set/overpair, you have one and not the other and the pot is just perfect to move in, or fold. Any PP likes this flop and there are 8000 draws out so to me it's a clear shove, but I wouldn't be here.

I'm happy to get it AI on this board, but I guess the question is do we best get opp's chips by flat calling the flop and then getting the rest in on the turn or by just shoving it right now?

[TLR]

The fact that you did not reraise preflop puts you on this tough decision, but I would push here. If you are not willing to push this flop you should fold preflop (which is madness), because you dont have the odds to call this raise for set value only

[rowey]

you dont have the odds to call this raise for set value only

I don't? I understand the rule of thumb for calling raises for set value at being able to win 15x the raise, which makes this a close fold against one opponent, however against two opponents I think it's very reasonable to call with 22 here.

[bjsaust]

No. Its effective stacks, not combined stacks. Its not terrible, but its not good either.

[TLR]

you dont have the odds to call this raise for set value only

I don't? I understand the rule of thumb for calling raises for set value at being able to win 15x the raise, which makes this a close fold against one opponent, however against two opponents I think it's very reasonable to call with 22 here.

This is true in a cash game when you look at each hand in a vacuum

In an Sng, I think risking almost 10% of your stack in order to fold most of the time it is incorrect.
You are also not closing the action, if you play for set value only and there is a raise behind you then you are forced to fold, so you gave up 120 chips for nothing

[rowey]

No. Its effective stacks, not combined stacks. Its not terrible, but its not good either.

So having an extra player in to possibly stack off doesn't change the situation at all?

[TLR]

No. Its effective stacks, not combined stacks. Its not terrible, but its not good either.

So having an extra player in to possibly stack off doesn't change the situation at all?

Given your stack size relative to the blinds the investment is just too high to play for set value, pretty much regardless to the number of players in the pot.
There are pros and cons for having multiple players in the pot, the big pro is that there is a bigger chance someone will connect to the flop and will pay you off.
The cons are that people play more straight forward in multieay pots, so you will see less c-bets and less bluff attempts, and often you need to bet to protect your set if there are draws out there

[bjsaust]

Theres probably some more possibility, so that counts for a little, (although as TLR mentions its not all positive) which is why I say its not terrible.

Really, thats probably the least of your mistakes, although it does make this a fold if thats how you're going to play it, you really need to take note of everything else thats been said rather than get caught up in that one bit.

[FlyingSaucy]

preflop you need to know if utg+1 is a donk or not in order to raise because you will need to know how to play the flop.

imo you really should 3bet preflop here to get rid of MP2 and the blinds. You want to go heads up and in position. In my book this 3 bet with JJ is for pure value. If you get 4 bet, fine, you probably have to let it go.

Calling pre in a multiway you are essentially saying that you are looking to hit a set and are willing to let others in behind you with good odds. SO..... you did not hit a set, and now have no idea if his hand beats you on that flop, nor do you know if any other opponents have you crushed with a set, so you have to fold, just as you would play set mining on a missed flop.

reraise pre gives you both value pre and position post flop. If you know UTG+1 is a donk, great, he will call preflop with worse hands. If he's not, he will call or raise pre with a better pocket pair since there's not much point in building a preflop pot to 1000 when you each will have less than a 1000 behind unless he has aces and just wants you to go in on the flop. So that's where knowing your opponent comes in. If your 3 bet is called, you're going to a flop and need to know what the call means.

[Geanooooo]

What? how can you three bet in this spot with the intention of folding FlyingSaucy? If your going to fold to a 4 bet either flat call or fold.
If the original raiser is a reg i tend to flat here as his range is fairly tight. I dont really like to threebet EP raisers this early with JJ.
Flop is difficult. I could go either way. In the heat of a set i probably shove over, but in theory Im not sure what would be the correct play.

[FlyingSaucy]

Because you raise to 550 and he pushes, you still have t900 to work with. If he pushes that means you are absolutely crushed. 4 betting pre takes AK out of the range, imo.

you fault me for folding to a 4 bet, preserving 2/3 of my stack, and then say that the flop is difficult and could go either way. How does flatting pre help you here post flop? If he checkraises you on the flop do you know where your JJ is at? Especially with others in the hand still, going to the flop without hitting a set is a quagmire.

[Geanooooo]

3bet folding is retarded.
You are aware that you're committing a 1/3 of your stack with the intention of folding to a shove where youll be getting nearly 3 to 1?
How can you possibly say that 4 betting pre takes AK out of his range?

If you 3bet/fold your turning JJ into a bluff. You may as well have 22 or 42os.
Flatting preseves 90% of my stack, with the intent of getting it in on favourable flops. We got unlucky that the pot got multiway, it could of easily stayed HU or 3 handed.
IMO JJ is not a premium hand at 15/30 Im not going to stack off with it pre flop in spots like this.

[drmcboy]

Tai, it's funny you assumed my post referenced yours rather than the OP....

FS, the idea that people don't 4bet AK is just wrong. Vs an unknown I would shove 100% of the time with AK vs a re raise here. That's especially true with the cold caller because we have some dead money and everyone and there mother has read HOH and likes the squeeze play now so you have to put a bluff % in even if you think the rest of his range is QQ+,AK.

oooooo's reason's not to three bet fold are dead on.

[FlyingSaucy]

OK I'm willing to entertain the apparent ridiculousness of 3bet folding. It's true that 3:1 is pretty close to being good against the 4 bet push range and taking the gamble for a double might be better than blowing off 1/3 of your stack preflop. In terms of sng EV 3bet calling is close to 3bet folding in my mind. So I'm not dead set on 3bet fold or 3bet call. The point is to 3bet.

Because the alternatives are flatting or pushing. Pushing is worse than 3 betting because you're almost always going to be getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call. Would you 3bet with QQ? Would you flat with QQ? Same questions for TT. If the answer is 3bet or push, what set you over the edge to raise it? At some point you are 3 betting for value. In my experience JJ is ahead of a typical EP raise, but it is not more than 3:1 EDIT: oops, 1:3 ahead of a hand that is willing to go to the felt preflop.

To me the biggest problem with flatting JJ multiway here is that there are so many flops that put you in a spot that you have no idea where you are, the best you can do is rep the set and hope EP raiser is checking AK and no one else actually hit a set. So even in position you will have a hard time betting when checked to on any non J flop.

I await taipans post on this.

[Geanooooo]

3 betting here is fine. As a personal preference i prefer to flat.
3 bet folding is however, terrible. If im going to three bet im more likely to shove for the opposite reasons you gave. Were more likely to get a call by someone who thinks we have AK as opposed to making a smaller 3 bet which is normally a tighter range.
As for not knowing where we are, how is a 3 bet really going to help us find out where we are if he flats and the flat caller flats? (which is very possible due the phenonemal pot odds they will both be getting) and the flop comes as it does. We could still be losing. The only +side is our decision is going to be swayed to getting it in as weve already commited 1/3rd of our stack.
If were going to 3 bet, I think it will be better to shove because of the flat caller.

[DetroitHusling101]

Given i put in decent volueme I'm usually aware of the other TAG regs in my game , so if UTG is unknown i don't HATE a push given the potsize after MP2's flat call.
More than likely i just flat though unless i have a read/stats that UTG is a donk.
IF i did 3bet in this scenario I would rather push than re raise in this spot with AK/JJ given we don't wanna be put in a tough decision with a overcard flop , or for AK we wanna see all 5 , and 3bet with QQ+.
I gotta agree with Geanoooo here about 3bet/folding , i don't like it at all.
Onto the flop. I get it in. Not happy about it but i do.