so I play LAG and get myself into a tough spot...now what?

[thizzSantaCruz]

I'm running 29/26 and dominating the table. Everyones playing real passive, I am stealing about 85% of the blinds and 3 betting light. Basically running the table. Villain in the hand has been folding all his blinds to me after I raised one of his leads a while ago. He seems to be getting fed up and has started calling my pf raises lite. He has folded to most of my c-bets up to now.


Eff stacks 100bb 50NL 5 handed


Folded to Hero in CO with and raises to $1.75
Villain calls on the button
Blinds fold

Flop (4.25)


Hero bets 3
Villain calls 3

Turn (10.25)


Hero bets 7
Villain is all in for 38
31 to call to hero.


Its a spot where I think a call might be good because of how much of a lagtard I have been. People are bound to play back somewhere and he can have a lot of draws here. On the other hand my hand really isn't that strong and the Q could complete a lot of 2 pair hands in his range. What do you guys do?

[minSim]

I don't know, I think you have to muck this.
Lot's of draws you should be against have overs on your pair as well, so they have decent equity. Also you don't have evidence villain has played lightly beyond the flop, so he could very well have 2pair, TT+ or a queen as well.

[BigPapi]

muck, if he starts doing it regularly then consider calling, but this is the first time he stood up, so I give him credit as he might actually not be playing back (he might just have a good hand here)

[Fnord]

Either he's trapping you from pretty early on, or he's FoS here. I'm just not feeling Qx the way this played out. I don't hate a call. Then again, I'll get so worked up in what I think they think of me that I lose perspective on what really makes my opponent tick. This often is my undoing when I'm playing LAgg (by design or just pushing a run a cards a little hard.)

[pocketfours]

Easy fold.

You will turn your hand into a bluff by raising and calling turn and river is pretty horrible. This is probably not the right spot to bluff either with your image.

[Rondavu]

I'll get so worked up in what I think they think of me that I lose perspective on what really makes my opponent tick. This often is my undoing when I'm playing LAgg (by design or just pushing a run a cards a little hard.)

Excellent You have to be sure an opponent is actually loosening their range, and you don't do that by stacking off weak the first time they play back. Also, you have to put Qx squarely in the villains range. A lot of times the first stage of playback is a kind of passive aggressive floating with broadways. Villains who don't like being bullied, but also don't want to push back weak because they don't feel comfortable. These are people who don't generally 3-bet, nevermind 3-bet often enough against your opening range. Instead they start calling a lot and peeling missed flops off cold with overcard pair outs, having no regard for their own implied odds. Villain actually shows up with AQ a fair amount in these spots.

You have to remember what you're trying to do. Your intention is to force opponents into bigger mistakes, not force yourself into tougher decisions. You have the luxury of folding when you're not sure, because you have theoretically increased your short term implied odds by opening up stack off ranges.

Think about it like this. You can fold too much until you're really good in these tight spots, and you're probably not losing a lot by doing so, often making a slight profit if you make up for it in other spots. You have to pay the price to become a good lagg, but don't overpay.

You will eventually figure out when it's correct to make thin calls. This is definately NOT one of those times.

[griffey24]

I'll get so worked up in what I think they think of me that I lose perspective on what really makes my opponent tick. This often is my undoing when I'm playing LAgg (by design or just pushing a run a cards a little hard.)

Excellent You have to be sure an opponent is actually loosening their range, and you don't do that by stacking off weak the first time they play back. Also, you have to put Qx squarely in the villains range. A lot of times the first stage of playback is a kind of passive aggressive floating with broadways. Villains who don't like being bullied, but also don't want to push back weak because they don't feel comfortable. These are people who don't generally 3-bet, nevermind 3-bet often enough against your opening range. Instead they start calling a lot and peeling missed flops off cold with overcard pair outs, having no regard for their own implied odds. Villain actually shows up with AQ a fair amount in these spots.

You have to remember what you're trying to do. Your intention is to force opponents into bigger mistakes, not force yourself into tougher decisions. You have the luxury of folding when you're not sure, because you have theoretically increased your short term implied odds by opening up stack off ranges.

Think about it like this. You can fold too much until you're really good in these tight spots, and you're probably not losing a lot by doing so, often making a slight profit if you make up for it in other spots. You have to pay the price to become a good lagg, but don't overpay.

You will eventually figure out when it's correct to make thin calls. This is definately NOT one of those times.

Good post Rondavu!

In addition to this, I feel like people think that lagg's will somehow CALL pushes lighter because of how spewy and loose they are playing. So when people make a stand for the first time or so, I also assume that they expect to be called. This might make the frequency of them bluffing lower than you'd expect.

I'd only start calling lighter as an adjustment to ppl playing back at you more. But like Rondavu said, prob not on the first time.

[will641]

i agree with rondavu. he is probably willing to call at least 2 streets with a hand like AQ. also i think theres a high likelyhood he is trapping. even with like TT or JJ.

[Galapogos]

Rondavu's post is so good. Especially this:

You have to remember what you're trying to do. Your intention is to force opponents into bigger mistakes, not force yourself into tougher decisions.

When I tried opening up my game my biggest downfall was making calls like in this hand. You're assuming they're capable o adjusting, and sometimes they might go batshit insane with bottom pair. But it's just not often enough. It's like he said, it's often them employing some "aggressive floating". I got a laugh out of that term, but it describes what they're doing perfectly.

[will641]

Rondavu's post is so good. Especially this:

You have to remember what you're trying to do. Your intention is to force opponents into bigger mistakes, not force yourself into tougher decisions.

When I tried opening up my game my biggest downfall was making calls like in this hand. You're assuming they're capable o adjusting, and sometimes they might go batshit insane with bottom pair. But it's just not often enough. It's like he said, it's often them employing some "aggressive floating". I got a laugh out of that term, but it describes what they're doing perfectly.

yeah my guess is your table image matters more and more as you move up stakes. at 50 nl and 100nl, they might notice that you are being aggro, but i dont think they are capable of making adjustments. they want to think they are, but when push comes to shove (no pun intended) they dont have the balls to do shove with air a lot.

[bode]

when we talked about this last night i was thinking villain had more of a Ts9s/9s8s type hand but i think KQ/AQ/77/22 make much more sense here. 77/22 arent quite as likely because i think he raises the flop with the FD out there but you cant discount them really. I also thought you were getting over 2:1 on a call, but thats not the case either. I fold and wait for a better spot.

[Ash256]

Guys, maybe villain knows that we know about hero's table image.

[thizzSantaCruz]

when we talked about this last night i was thinking villain had more of a Ts9s/9s8s type hand but i think KQ/AQ/77/22 make much more sense here. 77/22 arent quite as likely because i think he raises the flop with the FD out there but you cant discount them really. I also thought you were getting over 2:1 on a call, but thats not the case either. I fold and wait for a better spot.

Yea, I specifically remember getting having to call 30 bucks with 64 all ready in the pot. I did not have PT or PAhud working while playing so I couldn't go back and view the hand so this is off of memory. PT numbers are all approximents here, I just know I was raising much more than normal and due to a good run of cards I was able to be very active post flop. A couple things I did not mention when I posted the hand was villain insta-called flop and insta-pushed turn. Notes on him said he can be tricky, which in this case might make this even more of a fold because it puts sets into his range when someone straight forward would most likely raise the flop. He also is not the type of player to be value-pushing TT or JJ here. I had seen him 3bet KK earlier so he repops probably with QQ+.

[nutsinho]

I would generally call this and then go on raging tilt when im shown AQ with 0-1 hearts.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Villain said he had a pair and a flush draw after the hand. Oh well.