400NL KK, flop raised by villain... Stakes Q's

[mixchange]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($166)
BB ($100.35)
UTG ($285.50)
MP ($342.60)
Hero ($404)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
1 fold, MP calls $4, Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, MP calls $12.

Flop: ($38) T, 2, 4 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $20, MP raises to $50, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($138) 9 (2 players)
MP bets $65, Hero calls $65.

River: ($268) 6 (2 players)
MP bets $116.6, Hero calls $116.60.

Final Pot: $501.20

OK 2 questions here... the hand, and playing beyond BR for a fishy table.

I don't know this villain at all, and had only been at the table for 2 rounds. Villain had been in a lot of pots, 24/13ish (IIRC) I'm not as experienced playing this high, but I was playing at the table because overall looked fishy. High VPIP table, good pot sizes, and no full stacks. I didn't recognize any regs. I play enough to recognize some, and also I follow the top winner lists on Mass/ISF site and Stars regs threads. Even though I'm rolled for 200NL (lil over 3K) this seemed like a decent table to take a shot at (I'm only playing this 400nl table, not playing it 'normally). OK to play up? Or am I deluding myself and being risky?

Is this OK? How do you play it? 100nl has been absolutely filled with nitty tag's lately, and I've been able to find some softer games at 400nl oddly enough.

Anyone shove Flop? I know I should have bet bigger on the flop, maybe $30, but the limp call always worries me. I'm always confused about betsizing in spots like this, because I wonder what in his range he'd really call for $30, other than a FD.. which hit. When someone raises the flop on me on a board like that, it worries me...though I know ppl play in general more aggresively in 400NL, it makes me think he has either FD or a set considering PF action. How do you play?

[Marshall28]

if limp calling is worrying you, you definitely dont belong at a 2/4 table. pf shoulda made it like 20, flop shoulda been like a little less than pot, like 4/5ths pot, and u shoulda jammed over his checkraise. very standard.

it really soudns like you are playing too scared to play this limit profitably. wait til you have a bigger bankroll and more experience before u sit in these games. the fact that you will play scared will be the determining factor as to whether u win or not.

[mixchange]

limp calling is scary only because its a common set line, but not one I expect as much at higher stakes.

I definitely know not to play at 400 with good regs, but if I think I'm better than many players at the table, why not sit? And why would worse call my re-raise on flop?

[silu73]

Haven't played in ages so am a bit rusty.

Preflop size raise is OK'ish but flop bet is definetely too small. I would just shove over his check/raise.

[pocketfours]

Busto...

1. Lol @ 400NL with 3k. If you are any good you should have no problem getting a decent roll at lower stakes.

2. Your bet sizing is horrible, but I don't think your line is that bad.

Stay away mmmkay?

[silu73]

Just read that thing about your "bankroll management". FWIW my BR is $12k and I still play 200NL because playing with scared money is -EV. Some Cardrunner coaches even say that nowadays some should follow a 100x BI rule for shorthanded games. The game is just not as easy as it used to be.

[mixchange]

I didn't mean that I would stay at 400, I was just playing one table that looked good. no way i stay at 400 with my roll, just some ppl talk about being willing to go up a stake if the game looks juicy.

I know I suck way too much to stay at this kind of stake, but the idea was to try to score at a particularly fishy table. I've heard various people write about this before.

Point of thread is not "Can I stay at 400nl with 3K BR" -- I know that is silly. Idea is about playing to score in this one spot, and move back to my normal 100/200 mix of tables. I definitely have the control to leave if I get stuck a buy in, or leave when I'm up and the bad players are gone. Based on this info, still a bad idea?
-----

on the hand --
i guess everyone here is OK with getting stacked on the flop if he does have a set? he is limp calling, what range do we put him on? The guy betting is not a smart reg as far as I can tell.

[pocketfours]

what range do we put him on

W/o stats/reads, fish l/c range is pretty much ATC.

[wufwugy]

When the flop hits you should be thinking you have a felting hand, and only slow down or give up when you have reason to believe otherwise.

[Marshall28]

I didn't mean that I would stay at 400, I was just playing one table that looked good. no way i stay at 400 with my roll, just some ppl talk about being willing to go up a stake if the game looks juicy.

I know I suck way too much to stay at this kind of stake, but the idea was to try to score at a particularly fishy table. I've heard various people write about this before.

Point of thread is not "Can I stay at 400nl with 3K BR" -- I know that is silly. Idea is about playing to score in this one spot, and move back to my normal 100/200 mix of tables. I definitely have the control to leave if I get stuck a buy in, or leave when I'm up and the bad players are gone. Based on this info, still a bad idea?

its a bad idea for someone still learning the fundamentals of the game on a tiny bankroll. its a good idea for someone playing 3/6 or 5/10 who sees a super fish sitting 10/20 or 25/50 and has the bankroll to sustain a cooler/bad beat and the discipline to get out of the game if things begin to go poorly.

[mixchange]

I'll head the advice of the experienced vets here not to take shots then at higher fishy games.

the advice here is fantastic, so I'll just keep grinding lower stakes and instead take my chances with experimenting with new playing concepts/ideas at those stakes.

[Dislexsik]

reraise flop, as played shove turn

[will641]

how does 3k= rolled for 200nl?

[mixchange]

3300, I play a 100/200 mix, mostly 100 but some 200. when I drop under 14 BI for 200 i play 100 exclusively then I mix in some 200 when I get over 15 again

I cash out occasionally, and just try to pick off fish in 200 games, kinda like what I was talking about in the 400 games

you think I should dump the 200 too? or not cash out and let the roll grow to like 6K?

[Marshall28]

200 is filled w/ fish ... every game is good. til u realize this, stick w/ 100

[mixchange]

yeah yeah yeah marshall, but some games are fishier than others

[will641]

you think I should dump the 200 too? or not cash out and let the roll grow to like 6K?

the latter, cause if ur good enough to beat 100nl, you are good enough to beat 200nl, imo. soooo, why not just bite the bullet and get ur roll bigger and then make more monies? especially if you are experienced at 200nl, you probably have already gone through the learning curve there.

[Marshall28]

you're missin my point bud.

obv a table full of 20/18 players isnt going to be a particularly good one to sit at, but at 200 there is just a completely different dynamic, and if you don't understand it, u can lose a lot quickly.

on the same token, if you do understand the dynamic, it makes these games very profitable because it's players who don't understand the preflop 3bet game well enough and end up making errors costing them their entire stack which can be taken advantage of pretty easily.

[sauce123]

mixchange-

ur a good poker player, take shots man, thats how u learn and get motivated

[Marshall28]

i agree w/ sauce, i shouldnt have discouraged u from taking shots, that was a terrible thing to do. in my blog i actually advocate taking shots whenever u can afford to as long as u have the discpline to drop back down if thigns dont go well.

mixchange, im sorry for discouraging you and gl man, keep posting and asking good questions, you'll be killin 200nl in no time!

[will641]

i wasnt discouraging taking shots, just take your shots with more than 15 buy, like 20 or so. that was just my point.

[mixchange]

mixchange-

ur a good poker player, take shots man, thats how u learn and get motivated

thanks sauce, guys for the advice

this is the great difference of FTR vs. 2+2 -- good criticism + positive thinking

[mixchange]

also on the hand -- villain held K8o. just a fishy bluff.

but I figured I'd also be in this spot against much more competent opponents so I thought I'd get thoughts on it.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

dude just do whatever your comfortable with. As long as you're willing to move down EVENTUALLY you can use any bankroll strategy you want. You just have to be willing to accept that you could run bad.