Lame spot with nfd in rr pot vs tag 160bb deep

[Renton]

villain is like 28/22, super aggressive, and has made me fold a lot postflop in the last couple orbits. I haven't seen him show any hands down, but he's either been running hot or he's a spewer. Is it bad to bet the flop here?

Seat 1: Arvid2k7 ($231 in chips)
Seat 2: paulhouk03 ($198 in chips)
Seat 3: Gkastone ($795.95 in chips)
Seat 4: 0Human0 ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: Renton555 ($322 in chips)
Seat 6: Sweet.kr ($197 in chips)
paulhouk03: posts small blind $1
Gkastone: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Ad Jd]
0Human0: folds
Renton555: raises $4 to $6
Sweet.kr: folds
Arvid2k7: folds
paulhouk03: folds
Gkastone: raises $18 to $24
Renton555: calls $18
*** FLOP *** [9d 7s Kd]
Gkastone: checks
Renton555: bets $36
Gkastone: raises $88 to $124
Renton555:

[Muzzard]

In spots like this where I'm IP in a 3b pot and he's the agressor, I always like to take the free card with the NFD.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Shove, what else did you think we were gonna say?

[Renton]

variance check i guess

[gabe]

hate betting $36

[dalecooper]

I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, and you have a draw that you'd love to see more cards with. I check behind and look forward to crushing him when a diamond comes off. His AK/AA/KK will cry itself to sleep when it sees what you have.

[clarkatroid]

in a spot like this i think its kinda sexy to bet like 20 bucks on flop, setting up a re raise shove with tons of f/e

[Renton]

I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, or he could have QQ JJ TT 9x which i'm gonna need to apply at least one bet of pressure to since i have no showdown value, and those are actually the majority of his range.

[Renton]

also people pretty rarely c/r this flop in my experience

[thizzSantaCruz]

yea i agree renton, a c/r here is pretty strange. Most typical hands here that flopped TP or better are going to lead this flop. I would shove and get it in, you have fold equity and a lot of outs.

[gabe]

in a spot like this i think its kinda sexy to bet like 20 bucks on flop, setting up a re raise shove with tons of f/e

yea, min bet is better than 36

[mcatdog]

I hate that flop bet. He's been aggressive and then he checks the flop in a pot that he 3-bet - he's setting you up for a check-raise very transparently, and you have a draw that you'd love to see more cards with.

stop seeing monsters under the bed

[nutsinho]

i check the flop more than i bet it

[dalecooper]

"super aggressive"

This must mean something to the rest of you other than what it means to me. How often does a legitimate super aggressive player check a flop after 3-betting, especially a flop with a flush draw and no ace on it? I understand that a lot of players will check that flop with TT-QQ, but I wouldn't classify any of them as "super aggressive."

I'm not seeing monsters under the bed, just reading the OP's description of the player and then doing a little math involving the number two and his identical twin. If this player is less than SUPER aggressive and is just standardish, my take on this changes quite a bit.

[mcatdog]

If someone checked KK/AK and bet QQ-TT on this flop I wouldn't really consider them super aggressive I'd just consider them a fish. Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.

[Cocco_Bill]

checking flop is good when you have position. You can really use the info and extra options on the turn and river to make highly +EV plays. I mean if he bets turn you call with clear bluff equity when you miss and checked to on river. Also lets you check down an A or J in a smaller pot for value. You have no bluff equity against ak(perhaps kq) or better on the flop and lesser hands can be bluffed off on later streets.

[dalecooper]

If someone checked KK/AK and bet QQ-TT on this flop I wouldn't really consider them super aggressive I'd just consider them a fish. Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.

I admit I don't play 1/2, so stop me if this argument doesn't apply to those stakes. Right now I'm at .25/.50 and I used to play a lot of .50/1.00, but that's as high as I've gone. In any event: in the games I've played, "follow aggression with aggression" is a rule of thumb that way overrides considerations of showdown value, which is something most people that don't post here or at 2+2 have no sense of whatsoever. Even a lot of people with stats in that high TAgg, low LAgg sweet spot c-bet EVERY SINGLE TIME after they 3-bet. Mainly because they don't want to get "moved off their hand" by "showing weakness." Yes it's fishy. It's also totally common, so I adjust my strategies accordingly unless/until I've seen someone take a line that shows higher thinking.

As far as the aggressive/fish debate? There are plenty of people who are both. Some fish like to chew on other fish.

[Fnord]

A lot of weak players will call 3-bets with too wide of a range then check/fold so many flops that you can c-bet 2 waffles in this spot. Following through on a 3-bet can't be that bad. Also, part of our pre-flop implied threat against thinking players is that we will follow through.

People have somewhat wised up to the raise c-bet, but a 3-bet defines such a strong range that it still commands respect due to the tigher range and higher stakes.

So I'll buy that 100% c-bet after 3-betting pre-flop is good poker and his check here is really suspect.

That said, I've been seeing a lot of hands recently where people will run lines like this on two missed overcards.

[dalecooper]

A lot of weak players will call 3-bets with too wide of a range then check/fold so many flops that you can c-bet 2 waffles in this spot. Following through on a 3-bet can't be that bad. Also, part of our pre-flop implied threat against thinking players is that we will follow through.

People have somewhat wised up to the raise c-bet, but a 3-bet defines such a strong range that it still commands respect due to the tigher range and higher stakes.

So I'll buy that 100% c-bet after 3-betting pre-flop is good poker and his check here is really suspect.

I'm Barack Obama, and I endorse this message.

That said, I've been seeing a lot of hands recently where people will run lines like this on two missed overcards.

I've seen that too, and it's fucking retarded. Or maybe it's not, I dunno, but they seem to go to the felt and then a showdown often enough that I keep seeing it and thinking "WTF are you doooooing?" The only thing is, usually it's a missed AK (for god knows what reason), and AK didn't miss here. Maybe he has AQ and a burr under his saddle though. I guess this flop turns AQ into AK.

[dalecooper]

Even aggressive players usually know not to bluff when they have a marginal hand with a lot of showdown value.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ot-t69984.html

[Irisheyes]

Fnord I think you might have misread the OP, renton called the 3bet.

I'm down with $20/shove or checking behind. I probably check behind with a higher frequency.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

checking flop is good when you have position. You can really use the info and extra options on the turn and river to make highly +EV plays. I mean if he bets turn you call with clear bluff equity when you miss and checked to on river. Also lets you check down an A or J in a smaller pot for value. You have no bluff equity against ak(perhaps kq) or better on the flop and lesser hands can be bluffed off on later streets.

I really liked this post because it applies so well to todays mid stakes games:

1) You should be trying to fuck over people who are trying to get tricky

2) People expect you to be the flop with a fd so much, that actually this line the Bill is pointing out (calling a bet on the turn, then bluffing the river) actually has tons of FE because it's just not a line many people take with a missed draw.

[Fnord]

Fnord I think you might have misread the OP, renton called the 3bet.

Was mostly refering to mcat's reply about the aggressor's c-bet range here.

His checking range is very bipolar, because he's passing on what figures to be insta-profit.

[silu73]

I would never bet the flop with such a great draw in a re-raised pot against villain as described.