50NL 2 interesting hands, imo

[minSim]

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HAND #1
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I have villain 25/12/1.33 over 50 hands in my database, don't know at the time we played, likely a bit less hands, but w.e.
I wonder what my best turn play is and foremost why.
(and possibly what my river plan is)

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $87
SB: $19.25
BB: $123.70
UTG: $70.55
MP: $48.75
CO: $50.70

Pre-Flop: A Q dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 6 J 9 (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.50, BB calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.25) T (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero


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HAND #2
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Villain was unknown to me after 6 hands.

Can I call the flop raise?
If I can't call the flop raise, should I cbet?
If I can call the flop raise, should I cbet? What's my turn plan?

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $49.25
BB: $20.70
UTG: $42.70
Hero (CO): $50
BTN: $85.75

Pre-Flop: 6 4 dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, BTN folds, SB calls $1.75, BB folds

Flop: ($4.50) 5 6 8 (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB raises to $9.50, Hero

[dalecooper]

Hand 1: that's a decent scare card and you have a bazillion outs. I'd go ahead and bet, and if he calls there's a good pot going that you stand a real chance to take down on the river (hopefully with another bet and call, after you hit a king or club). Multi-nut draws are awesome.

Hand 2: c-bet seems fine to me against an unknown but I let it go at the raise. If you feel too weak, console yourself by going to your time bank just to annoy him.

[meeloche]

1) Bet 9 or 10

2) I fold preflop. I maybe would open this from the button but not mp. I would check the flop sometimes but b/f seems ok here against unknown.

[dalecooper]

2) I fold preflop. I maybe would open this from the button but not mp.

That open is completely fine depending on your table image and the table dynamics. Not nearly standard but fine nonetheless.

[minSim]

Hand 1: What am I folding that called flop?
Maybe A9, K9, 97.
FD's, but I wan't them in.
I'm getting raised by 2 pair and straights.

If I'm not planning on firing rivers that I miss, I think there's more arguments for checking behind and getting paid by second best hands when I hit a nut hand, agree/disagree?


Hand 2: As this is 5 handed I'm CO here and I think the preflop raise is fine with a tight BTN behind me.

To me it seems like generally villains play this flop like this against my cbet:
- 2pair+: c/r.
- any 7: c/r.
- TP: mostly c/c.
- overpairs c/c or c/r.
- overcards: don't know (c/f, c/c, c/r but mostly c/f for an unknown I guess)

To me it seems only worse hands fold to my cbet.
Assuming I'm gonna call every turn bet when I check flop, is a cbet still better? Why?

[dalecooper]

Hand 1: What am I folding that called flop?
Maybe A9, K9, 97.
FD's, but I wan't them in.
I'm getting raised by 2 pair and straights.

You do want flush draws in but you don't mind charging them. Also - do you think he never check/calls with a jack on the flop? His aggression level isn't high, I could definitely see him doing this with KJ or QJ. QJ obviously calls a turn bet (but again you have a ton of outs so that's fine - and if a king lands, it's payday). KJ may or may not call depending on how tight he is post-flop and how he reads you.

[minSim]

Hand 1: What am I folding that called flop?
Maybe A9, K9, 97.
FD's, but I wan't them in.
I'm getting raised by 2 pair and straights.

You do want flush draws in but you don't mind charging them. Also - do you think he never check/calls with a jack on the flop? His aggression level isn't high, I could definitely see him doing this with KJ or QJ. QJ obviously calls a turn bet (but again you have a ton of outs so that's fine - and if a king lands, it's payday). KJ may or may not call depending on how tight he is post-flop and how he reads you.

Dale, you made some solid points in this thread about building a pot for when we hit a nut hand. It's something like creating implied odds by betting (instead of having them offered by calling, like usual).
It's an interesting subject and very much unknown by me. It's something I have to think of and for now I have no idea how much it weighs against other arguments.

I think your point about charging FD's is good as well. I'm not sure how many bare FD's are gonna call a big turn bet, but there's a lot of combo draws out there. I kind of had a crooked tought process on it (that they would fold a lot).

I do think villain c/c's a jack a lot on the flop. But it's not like he's folding it on the turn, especially as a lot of them have turned into combo draws. You seem to think that's a good thing, but I don't think that's right. We're behind any jack so without i.e. a plan of betting villain of it on missed rivers, I don't see it being good (excluding the implied odds thing, see first paragraph).

[dalecooper]

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply we were definitely betting out those hands by betting the turn, just pointing out that his hand range for calling the flop was wider.

I do think though that if he's in there with QJ or KJ, betting is still good, IF you're willing to follow through with a river bluff when you miss. I dont know this for sure, of course, but his stats suggest he may be tight enough to not want to call 3 barrels on a coordinated board if he doesn't improve past top pair/decent kicker. So betting the turn if he has one pair (whatever pair it is) can set up a river bluff that will be very hard for him to call, or it can set up something more beautiful than that if the right card comes along that improves both of your hands. Basically I think given his probable range and the fact that we have position, control of the hand, and a lot of outs to the nuts, we can continue to show strength and end up winning the pot multiple ways on the river, even if he's fairly likely to call the turn.

[c-luvin]

As for your question about making the c-bet when only better hands will call. I think your looking at your c-bet in the wrong way, because if a worse hand like random overs folds it is good for us because we win the pot, their hand cannot improve into a hand that beats us, and because our pair/ass straight draw is not a very strong hand. You c-bet to try and take the hand down and we are happy when any hand folds better or worse because we have a hand that will rarely turn into a hand that we want to put big bets in with on the turn/river. Fold to the raise because of the reasons i just said.

The first hand i like a bet unless you have a very reliable read that he likes to c/c, c/ bomb his nut hands. My reason for betting is because when i spike the nuts on the river i like when the pot is big. thats about it.

[Galapogos]

I like a check behind the turn in Hand #1, that T made a whole lot of hands we're up against a lot better.

[Silly String]

As deep as we are, I like a turn bet to set up a bigger score on the river.
I would bet $10 since I don't see a serious threat of getting raised by this villain. If we have 2:1 odds to win then I am betting every time that I don't think I'll get raised. It is a BE move, but it builds the pot for when I hit, it makes me more difficult to play against and it loosens the villains calling range.

[tarath]

hand 1) Easy bet3bet you greatly underestimate the range hes calling flop with here. You have sooo much equity against his range and you need to build a pot on the turn so that if you hit the river you get his whole stack. Getting raised here and getting AI is not a big deal.

hand 2) well played so far fold to flop raise.

[Silly String]

Villain c/c'd flop, so it is a little hard to b/3bet the flop here. B/3betting the turn would be very bad as deep as we are.