Strong enough for a slow play?

[Ghaleon]

Quick question about a hand I ran into the other night at the local charity card room. I flopped a big hand, but wasn't sure if it was strong enough for a slow play.

The game is a $150 buy-in, 6 handed sit n go, 5,000 starting chips. Very early, blinds are 100/100, I have the big stack, but it's only about 7,000

I am in the cutoff with 7h, 5d

UTG calls 100, 1 fold, I call 100, Button folds, sb checks, bb checks

Flop is 9d 8c 6c

SB bets 500, BB raises to 1,500 they both have somewhere between 3000 and 4000 left.

Is smooth calling even an option here? A raise to 3000 is just as good as an all-in given their stack size.

So do I call, or shover over?

[CoccoBill]

What are you trying to achieve by slowplaying?

[ATOTHEC101]

most definately shove as youll still get called by sets and 2 pairs anyway plus u dnt want someone to also make a str8 on the turn or river and split the pot.

[kmind]

just shove. So much crap that you beat will call but any reads/image/etc would be sweet to know

[d0zer]

Seems like BB is ready to get'er in, and there's enough turn cards you don't really wanna see to make this a good push IMO.

3-way, very drawy board, and you've got a great, but vulnerable hand...I push.

[Ghaleon]

What are you trying to achieve by slowplaying?

I'm trying to induce another bet from one of the other players. But I understand that there are enough cards left in the deck that I don't want to see.

In actuality, I did shove all-in. The small blind folded. The big blind thought long and hard about calling. But after much deliberation he said that he thinks I have Tc 9c, which gives me enough outs to be a favorite against his two pair (9,8)

So that's why I asked the question. While I'm happy to win the pot, it was disappointing to not get any more value out of my straight so I was just wondering if I could/should have played it differently.

[taipan168]

The other thing that hasn't been discussed is that I fold 75o from the CO pretty fast.

[Ghaleon]

The other thing that hasn't been discussed is that I fold 75o from the CO pretty fast.

I agree mostly. However, what often happens at the live SNG's where I play is that most players will limp with almost anything when the blinds are 100/100. Raises pre-flop are pretty rare at this level. I think most players are looking to see a cheap flop hoping to hit a big hand and accumualte chips. It's not a terrible strategy when you consider that we're not playing online here. Blinds increase quickly, and hands are dealt alot slower.

My rule of thumb is that i will never open a pot by limping. If I'm first, I'm either raising or folding. However, if someone limps in front of me, and I have a hand like a small pair, or even two medium cards, I'll call if I have enough chips. In this case, it was costing me 1/70 of my stack to see a pot offering 3 to 1 odds. While 75o is a weak hand, it's probably good enough for this situation. Though, I will admit, it's pretty close to the minimum. I'm folding any low two-gapped cards, or hands that are easily dominated like weak aces, and face card/little card combos.

[Deuce Blue]

I don't think you are laying this down if you smooth call. I don't think the re-raiser is either. If you chase the original raiser out fine. Too drawy and your hand is weak. I'm pretty sure I would just shove and look away.

oops, went back and saw what happened. I still think it was the best move.

[taipan168]

The other thing that hasn't been discussed is that I fold 75o from the CO pretty fast.

I agree mostly. However, what often happens at the live SNG's where I play is that most players will limp with almost anything when the blinds are 100/100. Raises pre-flop are pretty rare at this level. I think most players are looking to see a cheap flop hoping to hit a big hand and accumualte chips. It's not a terrible strategy when you consider that we're not playing online here. Blinds increase quickly, and hands are dealt alot slower.

My rule of thumb is that i will never open a pot by limping. If I'm first, I'm either raising or folding. However, if someone limps in front of me, and I have a hand like a small pair, or even two medium cards, I'll call if I have enough chips. In this case, it was costing me 1/70 of my stack to see a pot offering 3 to 1 odds. While 75o is a weak hand, it's probably good enough for this situation. Though, I will admit, it's pretty close to the minimum. I'm folding any low two-gapped cards, or hands that are easily dominated like weak aces, and face card/little card combos.

Couple of things:

1. You're playing this for two pair or better on the flop. Because your 75o is unsuited, your chance of flopping 2p+ is probably about 3%.

2. You need to look at the amount of chips you can win, not just your own stack. Since you're the big stack, the maximum chips you can win is your opps' stack not yours.

3. To have correct implied odds to make the call here, you need to be able to win about 30-35x the chips you call preflop, so you need to be able to win 3000-3500 chips at a minimum.

4. Although this condition is satisfied, opps will not stack off every time you hit two pair or better. Say they only stack off half the time (which is probably optimistic) then you need to be able to win 6000-7000 chips to make the call worthwhile.

5. Since everybody's stack is around 5000, I don't think you have correct implied odds to play this trash.

6. There is always the chance that somebody still to act will raise and you will have to throw your 75o away, burning 100 chips.

7. There is also the chance that you lose more chips than you should because you hit a 7 or 5 on the flop, or flop a draw of some kind and lose chips chasing, even with correct odds.

This is why I would fold in your situation. If you were in the SB and had a limper or two in front, that's a different story.

[bjsaust]

The point of slowplaying is to get more chips into the pot from people who otherwise probably wouldnt. In this case you've got a bet and a raise. You probably arent any more likely to get chips in by slowplaying than by fastplaying, so get your money in while you're ahead.

If BB is retarded enough to put you on one specific hand and make a hero fold, well theres no reason to believe flatting him would have made any difference to his "soul readz".

[Ghaleon]

Taipan,

I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. Your math works.

However, I think alot depends on the structure of the game. Here, we're playing live, with 12 or 15 min blinds (depending where you play) and blinds go up fast: 100/100, 100/200, 200/400, 300/600, 500/1000, 800/1600.

So even if I make this "limp with trash" play five times, which is alot, I rarely have the opportunity to do it that often during the first round of blinds, I would only be down 500 chips. Which 30 minutes, or about 15 hands from now, won't even be enough for the big blind.

So here's my logic - I'm sacrificing an insignificant portion of my stack for the opportunity to hit a big hand and grow my stack 20%, 30%, or even 50%.

I understand that I won't hit that kind of hand very often, but if I do, and I can increase my stack to between 7000 and 10,000 I have greatly increased my chances of making the money (6 handed game, pays top 2).

And in the cases where I don't hit those hands, and I get two or three blind levels into the game, am I really going to miss those 300 - 500 chips I spent chasing with trash. So, in other words, lets assume I play tight, and after a few rounds of blinds, I'm down to about 4500 in chips. with blinds at 300/600 and going up to 500/1000 after that, is my situation that much different than if I had spend an additional 500 in the early rounds seeing flops with marginal hands?

Is a stack of 4500 really that much stronger than a stack of 4000 when the blinds are that high?

Online and in live MTT's with deeper stacks and slower blinds, I agree 100%. However, in this structure, I believe that seeing cheap flops early on will help my long term profit.

[taipan168]

In a fast structure like this, playing a good push/fold game is very important and therefore it is imperative to preserve chips for push/fold poker. Those 500 chips that you bleed away early could be 1000 or more in your stack if you push, get called and win. Plus every additional chip in your stack gives you just that little bit extra fold equity when you shove.

I don't think you've quite grasped the point that taking into account the chance of hitting a monster hand AND getting paid off, you just can't win enough chips to justify making the call with a hand like 75o. You say you can increase your stack by even 50% if you hit big hand - in this case that means you're making an assumption that every time you do hit big you are going to get paid off big which just doesn't happen.

On the other hand, if there were 2+ limpers in front and you have T9s or 98s on the button, that's a hand I would limp because it has a greater chance of hitting something on the flop that you'd commit your whole stack with. Not saying to NEVER limp, but just be a bit selective with what you do limp with