Top Two Pair on a dangerous flushing board

[Perrygarl]

Ok, this hand has been bugging me, so I need your help on if I played the hand badly and where did I go wrong if I did. We started off with stacks of 5700 and I am just down to 5680.

The pot is six handed when I have called in the small blind with Ts-8s, blinds are at 10/20. The flop comes T-8-6, all diamonds, in the small blind I opt to check and raise big when someone makes the bet in to try and get some chips. This happens when a loose player bets the pot, and another player calls on the cut-off. Everyone else has folded and I raise to 500. The loose player folds, but the player on the cut-off thinks, then calls.

I know this guy a lot since we are in the same poker group. But I know he is probably the best player in our group. The problem I had on the turn, which came the Kc, for:

Td 8d 6d Kc

Was that I was unsure whether he had the hand or not. It's possible flushes and straights are out there. So it's possible he flopped a monster and got a flush (straight perhaps unlikely because of the flush board out there, but my check-raise could signify a big flush draw rather than a made hand perhaps). But I couldn't help but think he could possibly still be drawing, if he had the 9d he was favourite to win the pot on the flop, but we had big enough stacks not to commit.

So I decided to bet 1500 (the pot was spread wildly so I could not determine the amount in there exactly.) So now I know I did a overbet to the pot, which could signify weakness. I felt I had to bet to know where I was, but a small bet could easily be re-raised and I could be bluffed, the bet also left me with 3660, more than enough to fold and carry on in another hand if he continued. He calls and the river is the 8c. So I bet 1600 and after a while he reluctantly calls with K-4 diamonds for a flopped flush like I was dreading. I rivered the full house and I can't help but think now that despite winning the hand I played it terribly.

While he can be tricky he generally plays a solid game so I had to assume that on such a dangerous flop like that he had to be holding something big. The slow-playing as well should have also been noticeable that he had a monster on such a wet board.

What do you guys think about the hand? Sorry that it is not in the usual text but this was live not online

[taipan168]

Preflop: How many players limped in front? From what you posted it sounds like there were at least two, so I think limping is fine too, particularly with such deep stacks (were blinds really 10/20 or did you mean 100/200)?

Flop: I would definitely lead here. On that sort of board you want to play top two pretty fast because with (at least) three opps in the pot, you do not want to give a free card to somebody with a lone . If I read the HH correctly then the pot is at least 80 - I would bet the pot here or maybe even overbet a little. The other reason not to check/raise is that it builds a very large pot on a somewhat scary board, and I think I'd feel better about playing top two on a monotone board against multiple opps with a slightly smaller pot.

Turn: I think you have two alternatives here - either check/call or lead. I probably lead as there is no reason to believe that our hand has gone from ahead to behind unless opp had something like KT/K8/K6 or KK. However, it sounds like the pot is about 1200 so I think 800 is plenty here rather than overbetting. Reading the pot size is a pretty important skill in live games, you can do this by either estimating the chips in the pot or adding up the bets that have been made up to this point.

River: Considering the size of the pot (4000+) and your remaining stack, I would just shove the river. If he has a flush he isn't getting away from the hand and if he has a better full house then that's just bad luck.

I felt I had to bet to know where I was

This isn't a good reason to bet. So you did bet, got called, do you have any better idea where you were by making this bet than if you checked?

[Perrygarl]

I think betting did on the turn. It's possible he was drawing on the flop, but he was not the type of person who draws on the turn after a big bet, I had to assume he had something.

[taipan168]

I think betting did on the turn. It's possible he was drawing on the flop, but he was not the type of person who draws on the turn after a big bet, I had to assume he had something.

I'm not saying that betting the turn was wrong, but the reasons to bet the turn are because we believe our hand is still best (a value bet) and we want to avoid giving a free card if opp has a single (protect), NOT to "see where we're at".

If you got called and the river came a blank, what are you doing and how are you going to use the supposed information you've gained on the turn?

[Perrygarl]

I am not sure a bet is just used for value. The bet was used to determine whether I had the best hand or not, for information. On a board of 10d-8d-6d there are very few hands I could have put him on which he would be willing to play all the way to the river. The flop he could be drawing, but by making the bet on the turn I could around about determine that my two pair is probably behind, I am behind flushes, straights and if he is being frisky with a set. The only hand I am ahead of is Ad-x or Kd-x and they aren't hands to limp in with if they were unsuited.

The reason why I was unsure was it was the best hand is because of how wet the board was. You probably have to fold if raised on the turn and if it wasn't for the miracle card on the river, it would probably be a fold on the river.

I don't think it was a dark-tunnel bluff, because that shows your really have no clue where you are. I am betting because I know there is a chance that my hand is ahead, after all top two pair is strong enough to bet obviously, but the board makes it vulnerable and unlikely to be bluffed at when I am showing such willingness to put chips in the pot.

[Stackumz]

I'm actually in agreement with the way you played most of the hand, especially the flop and the turn. This is generally how I play hands in this type of situation (the 1500 bet is nice cause it's a respectable sized bet, plus you have plenty of chips left if you decide to fold to a raise or on the river). On the river I think I would have played more aggressively considering it was a live game, 6 handed and I think he would consider his straight or flush (possibly a set) to be the best hand. In hind-site knowing he had the king high flush he probably would have called an all-in bet...

[Perrygarl]

Yeah in hind-sight definitely. Basically I just wanted to get paid, the problem was when he plays well, he reads bloody well. He can make some tough laydowns when he goes through a hand, and when I bet that much he was worried he got rivered, he thought I could have trips or a straight too.

Another reason was that I had knocked him out three times running. Once in a cash game when my flopped straight against his flopped top set, then my flopped bottom set against his top pair when blinds were large and then my flopped top set against his flopped bottom set. We were just in a time where we seemed to run into each other every time and play a large pot. We play generally tight so we know when we are putting chips in the pot we have to have something.

So I didn't want to lose him when I made the small bet, I made the bet on the turn so that if he continued I could fold with plenty to continue with. I cannot be sure but I wouldn't put it past him to fold the King high flush if I pushed, thinking the same way. But yeah, in hindsight, the push might have been the best move, pushing the full house wouldn't make sense and chances are it would have got paid off by his hand, definitely against other players, and enough by him for it to be the best move.