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why play tournaments?

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  1. #1

    Default why play tournaments?

    Ask any good poker player about tournaments, and he'll probably laugh at you and tell you what a waste of time they are. Cash players tend to think tournaments are boring, time-consuming, too dependent on luck, and worst of all, they don't help you get better at poker as fast as you could if you played cash games. All of that is true, to a point. But even with all the negative, there's one big positive: they offer you the chance to play against horrible opposition for a lot of money. Any cash game played for a comparable amount of money is going to be much, much tougher to beat. I want to argue that for many players, tournaments are actually the most profitable use of your time, sometimes by a lot.

    This post is about why you should play tournaments, but some people shouldn't. The biggest problem with tournaments is the amount of short-term luck. In any given tournament, half the prize pool goes to the top three finishers. If 500 people enter, even a very good player is only going to make the top three about 1% of the time. It's normal for good players to play hundreds of tournaments without a big score, or to play over 1000 tournaments and be down money at the end. As a result, you need a much bigger bankroll for tournaments than for cash games. The commonly-used 100 buyin rule is fine for small fields with a couple hundred players, but if you play mostly huge tournaments with close to 1000 players or more, you should follow a 200 buyin rule.

    If you are a newer player with a small bankroll and you're still moving up as fast as your bankroll allows you to, don't play tournaments. For example, someone with a 4K bankroll can play .5-1 NL cash games, or tournaments with a buyin of $33 and below. Let's suppose this player can beat .5-1 for 3 BB/100 playing eight tables at a time, and that he has a 50% ROI in tournaments. These assumptions are probably too optimistic for newer players, but we'll get to that later. Eight cash tables is about 600 hands per hour, so this player stands to make $36 per hour. Unfortunately, it's much more difficult to maintain eight tournaments at a time for an entire session. At the beginning of a session, you'll only be playing one or two as you wait for new ones to start, and toward the end, you'll also only be playing one or two because you can no longer commit the time to play an entire tournament from start to finish. So let's say this player manages to play 20 tournaments during an eight-hour session, with an average buyin of $25. With a 50% ROI, he expects to make $250 during the session, or $31 per hour. Even though the money is about the same, it's clearly more desirable for this player to play cash games. He's earning his money far more consistently, he's probably improving his game more rapidly, and he can begin and end his sessions whenever he wants. When you start a tournament session, you need to commit yourself to playing for the next six hours, and at times it can feel like a prison sentence.

    So why shouldn't we all just play cash games and leave tournaments to the fish? Well, if you keep moving up every time you accumulate 40 buyins for the next level of cash games, you'll eventually discover that you're not beating the games for 3 BB/100 anymore. You may even be losing money. High-stakes cash games are very difficult, and most people simply don't have the ability to win. The Peter Principle applies here; people stop moving up as soon as they reach a level that they can't beat

    For our next example, a player has built a 20K bankroll at 1-2 NL, but every time he's tried to move up to 2-4 NL, he's failed. He's not a good enough poker player to beat the 2-4 games for a significant winrate, and he realizes that, so he decides to remain at 1-2 even though he's overrolled for it. This player can beat 1-2 for 2.5 BB/100 playing ten tables, for $75 an hour. If he instead plays an average of three tournaments an hour with a a $100 buyin, his ROI doesn't even need to be that high before he's making a lot more money, because the opposition is so weak. Even though he's outclassed at 2-4, he dominates any online tournament he enters. If you are an experienced poker player with a solid bankroll but the cash games at your level are too difficult for you, then you could make more money if you learned basic tournament strategy and played a few tournaments a session.

    Of course, on any day except Sunday, there aren't enough $100+ buyin tournaments a night for you to play them exclusively. So just play as many as you can, and if you have room for extra tables, then add cash game tables to fill the extra space. You're likely to be making more money per hour at the tournament table than at the cash game table. For example, you can play the nightly $162 tournaments on PokerStars and Full Tilt, a $33 rebuy, and three of the $109 tournaments that run every few hours, and as you bust out, replace that table with a table of 1-2 NL.

    It's common for new players to try tournaments, then switch to cash games as they get more serious about poker. I argue that it should be the other way around; you should use cash games to build your bankroll and learn the game, and once you've done that, then add in some tournaments to maximize your profitability. If you're a recreational player then play whatever form of poker you enjoy the most. On the other hand, if poker is a significant source of income for you then you should look at the game as an investment and play the form of poker where you make the most money. Even if you think tournaments are kind of dumb – and I agree, they are – it's silly to pass up on the money that's out there.
  2. #2
    good post

    you can also add tables with the 45/180 mans that fill pretty quick up to 50, although you can't beat them (at least the 45 $55s) for 50%. The 45/100s don't run much and have a bunch of regs in them, every time I play one I tell myself not too. Plus you can practice push fold and short handed
  3. #3
    i wish i knew why i sucked at cash games.

    i probably get to emotional.

    but i've tried cash games... i'm just bad at them.

    i can definitely see the advantages of cash games. if your good at them you can build a roll much quicker i suppose.

    i guess i read this and go "hmmmm... ".
  4. #4
    pantherhound's Avatar
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    great post and very relevant to my personal experience.

    My roll is 8K but I mostly play $50 and $100 just because I feel I can win more there. I take shots higher when the games are good, but the $14K GTD I play every night is so full of dead money it is crazy profitable.

    I have had a couple of 4th in it in the past couple of months and 1 2nd in the 20K GTD. The thing I like about mixing tourney play and cash games is that I know I have the game to get deep in these tournaments, and I also know that my winrate in cash is sufficient to more than cover the buyins, so even if I'm breakeven accounting for cash and 20 tourneys or so that 1 big score will give it my BR another huge boost, and even if I run bad in cash I still have 130 buyins for the 14K.
  5. #5
    Good post. I know that I should play more cash than tourneys, but I actually love to play tourneys more than cash. I thinks it's because of the dream of a quick quadruple up of my br in only 6-7 hours of play and only investing a small amount. I have get rich problems and don't focus well on the long-term approach.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprayed
    Good post. I know that I should play more cash than tourneys, but I actually love to play tourneys more than cash. I thinks it's because of the dream of a quick quadruple up of my br in only 6-7 hours of play and only investing a small amount. I have get rich problems and don't focus well on the long-term approach.
    yeah thats me too i think.

    i'd like to know how long it has taken some people to build from their initial investment into 4 or 5k.... playing ring. everyone's initial investement will be different too. some will start out super micro and others might jump in at 1/2.
  7. #7
    Is it easier to build up a roll playing cash or STT's Relativitely new and don't really know what to play. It seems I go on tilt way to easily playing cash. Tournaments I don't because I know I can't win if I get lucky on a single hand. Cash games you can get lucky and win on a single hand. I guess I have more discipline when I play tournaments.
  8. #8
    i play much better in tournaments i usually have a STT open and 3 90 player knockouts open at a time atm. i need to crank 2 or 3 wins/places to really sort my roll back out. i think the elimination factor in tournaments makes it much easier to play tighter and more carefully. also if u miss time one move in a tournament ur out and u just buy in again and ur always moving tables so players cant see your soul as easily and cant watch ur patterns as much. i really big part of my game is bluffing small pots and i find it very difficult when i play with real money i become attached to it and i cant fire 2 or 3 barrels as easily.
    also people in tournaments are much more likey to do donkey all in bets which i love.
  9. #9
    maybe i take suggestions to easily when i should stick to what i know works for me. but mcat has alot more experience than i do... so i figure i'd at least give ring a real shot... worst case scenario is i clear my FTP bonus and i only have $600 in my account.

    i was reviewing my stats for my new attempt at ring and decided to look at my stats for the tourney regiment i was regularly playing.

    to sum it up, mcat is basically saying you build your bankroll faster in ring and learn the game more efficiently as well. he is comparing ring to someone playing mainly large field tourneys for around $20 BI.

    what if you can build your roll with the 180 man SnG's?

    here are some stats for those games. keep in mind... my game has improved ALOT in the last 1565 games.

    i've played 1565 180 man SNG's at $4-$20 BI's... 99% non-turbo. ROI is 47%, total profit $4,128.

    over last 1000 games... 68%, 4,215.

    over last 500 games... 112%, 3,681.

    i don't know if this sample size means jack shit or not.

    if i can beat the $10 and $20 180 SnG's at the rate i'm beating the $4's... i'd be really happy. PLUS... i'd still be getting A LOT of MTT experience. IMO, much better experience for future large field tourneys than 1-3 table SnG's.

    even if i could, i'm guessing it would not be as profitable as beating 1/2 200NL. i haven't done any projections so its just a guess.

    i'm not posting this to prove anything or disagree with mcat. like i said, i'm taking the ring suggestion seriously. i'm just throwing this out there as a possible valid alternative to building your bankroll strictly through ring.

    i'd be interested in responses.

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