6 left in 11.00 180 man

[hlester25]

What is your move?

PokerStars Game #17486843267: Tournament #88633523, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/05/17 - 04:20:42 (ET)
Table '88633523 10' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Ambush Chuck (37104 in chips)
Seat 3: TheThathee (41656 in chips)
Seat 4: AMEC04 (41438 in chips)
Seat 6: zigozago (21271 in chips)
Seat 7: adso1353 (35214 in chips)
Seat 8: TurkeyHead2 (93317 in chips)
Ambush Chuck: posts the ante 200
TheThathee: posts the ante 200
AMEC04: posts the ante 200
zigozago: posts the ante 200
adso1353: posts the ante 200
TurkeyHead2: posts the ante 200
TurkeyHead2: posts small blind 1000
Ambush Chuck: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AMEC04 [Js As]
AMEC04 said, "torunies is way to go"
TheThathee: folds
AMEC04: raises 2500 to 4500
zigozago: folds
adso1353: folds
TurkeyHead2: folds
Ambush Chuck: calls 2500
*** FLOP *** [Ks 4h 8s]
Ambush Chuck: checks
AMEC04: bets 6000
Ambush Chuck: raises 6000 to 12000
AMEC04: ????????????

[Sprayed]

What are your reads on this player? The smooth call is fishy. This could be a monster, but without reads it's hard to tell. A smooth call with his stack preflop is either a very big hand or he is inexperienced. Most would just shove over your raise preflop. As flops go, this isn't that bad to c-bet. But, if you feel he is trying to trap you, I might just check to see the turn and reevaluate.

As played, with the stack that you have and considering that all but one player at the table have similar 10M stacks, I would probably shove over his stupid min raise on the flop.

[Roco415]

for some reason i think if you had bet a couple more pre....you wouldnt have run into as complex a situation as you did....its not too much for him to call pre with a wide range

[Sprayed]

for some reason i think if you had bet a couple more pre....you wouldnt have run into as complex a situation as you did....its not too much for him to call pre with a wide range

Good point. Make it around 6k.

[drmcboy]

I'd bet more on the flop, shove now.

I think checking this flop is terrible. People smooth call raises all the time, I don't see why it's fishy. They both almost 20BB stacks. We have a ton of FE and a great hand which is never worse than 2/1, put chips in.

[CorbinDallas]

the smooth call pre isn't fishy to me.

check min raises in these 180's usually mean a set.... especially this late in the tourney. but i'd need some kind of read to say for sure in this situation.

if the guy's stats are like 20/4/1 then you have 9 outs. if he is like 30/18/5.... insta shove... cuz guys like will do the min raise thing as an information raise.

but here he is check raising which is weird. what have you been playing like? that matters too.

[hlester25]

I definately didnt put him on anything more than top pair, but also didnt think he would fold top pair either to a 3bet push.

[hlester25]

This is the end result

PokerStars Game #17486843267: Tournament #88633523, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/05/17 - 04:20:42 (ET)
Table '88633523 10' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Ambush Chuck (37104 in chips)
Seat 3: TheThathee (41656 in chips)
Seat 4: AMEC04 (41438 in chips)
Seat 6: zigozago (21271 in chips)
Seat 7: adso1353 (35214 in chips)
Seat 8: TurkeyHead2 (93317 in chips)
Ambush Chuck: posts the ante 200
TheThathee: posts the ante 200
AMEC04: posts the ante 200
zigozago: posts the ante 200
adso1353: posts the ante 200
TurkeyHead2: posts the ante 200
TurkeyHead2: posts small blind 1000
Ambush Chuck: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AMEC04 [Js As]
AMEC04 said, "torunies is way to go"
TheThathee: folds
AMEC04: raises 2500 to 4500
zigozago: folds
adso1353: folds
TurkeyHead2: folds
Ambush Chuck: calls 2500
*** FLOP *** [Ks 4h 8s]
Ambush Chuck: checks
AMEC04: bets 6000
Ambush Chuck: raises 6000 to 12000
AMEC04: raises 24738 to 36738 and is all-in
Ambush Chuck: calls 20404 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (4334) returned to AMEC04
TheThathee said, "yeh because in ring games they want huge hands which equal a bigger rake, in tourneys they make a set amount of money no matter what"
*** TURN *** [Ks 4h 8s] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [Ks 4h 8s 7h] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ambush Chuck: shows [Kh Jc] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
AMEC04: shows [Js As] (a pair of Sevens)
Ambush Chuck collected 76008 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 76008 | Rake 0
Board [Ks 4h 8s 7h 7c]
Seat 1: Ambush Chuck (big blind) showed [Kh Jc] and won (76008) with two pair, Kings and Sevens
Seat 3: TheThathee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AMEC04 showed [Js As] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 6: zigozago folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: adso1353 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: TurkeyHead2 (small blind) folded before Flop

[CorbinDallas]

yeah pretty bad by him.

i think a case could be made to just call the check raise since you are getting such a great price. but then you have so much of your stack invested etc...

[hlester25]

the smooth call pre isn't fishy to me.

check min raises in these 180's usually mean a set.... especially this late in the tourney. but i'd need some kind of read to say for sure in this situation.

if the guy's stats are like 20/4/1 then you have 9 outs. if he is like 30/18/5.... insta shove... cuz guys like will do the min raise thing as an information raise.

but here he is check raising which is weird. what have you been playing like? that matters too.

My image was definately loose. I was doing a large amount of stealing when it got to 6 handed.

I can definately see what you are saying about raising more pre, but really, I wanted some action here from the BB. He was really the weakest player at the FT. When he min razed me post flop, I put him on a weak king.

In regards to my re raise all in post flop, do you guys think it is best to dip into the time bank a little before pushing or to push fairly quickly? I 3 bet him pretty quick and I think that lost me some fold equity. Had I waited and used a few seconds in the time bank I think he was more likely to fold. Agree? Disagree?

[hlester25]

yeah pretty bad by him.

i think a case could be made to just call the check raise since you are getting such a great price. but then you have so much of your stack invested etc...

I really dont like calling here. I think he pushes the turn if a blank comes and then what? I gotta fold (but I would have still had a decent stack). Because of the player I was up against, I really feel I may have overestimated my fold equity. The more I think about it, I feel I should have 3 bet him like 8K more. I think he smooth calls it as bad of a play as that is, and then I can check the turn and fold the river if I miss. The difference in fold equity from 3 betting all in and 3 betting 8K wasn't worth as much as it would have been to still have 20K left at the end of the hand if I blank. Obv, I would call the 4bet pushpost flop if he decided to go that route.

Also, at the end of the day, I am all about putting the pressure on in race or 60/40 situations and thats exactly what I did here.

[mcatdog]

I disagree with a lot of this thread.

Preflop is fine, don't make it 6K. You should be stealing the blinds a lot here and you don't want to risk too much of your stack when you do it. Even though you actually have a hand this time you don't want to raise all kinds of different amounts depending on whether you do or don't have a hand.

His preflop call is not bad at all with KJo vs an aggressive blind stealer, and he was never folding the flop no matter what you did. Anyway as played this is an easy shove.

[hlester25]

I disagree with a lot of this thread.

Preflop is fine, don't make it 6K. You should be stealing the blinds a lot here and you don't want to risk too much of your stack when you do it. Even though you actually have a hand this time you don't want to raise all kinds of different amounts depending on whether you do or don't have a hand.

His preflop call is not bad at all with KJo vs an aggressive blind stealer, and he was never folding the flop no matter what you did. Anyway as played this is an easy shove.

I agree with this 100%, what do you think about 3 betting him 8K post flop(obv calling a 4 bet shove), checking behind on the turn and folding the river if I miss. I really feel smooth calling his min check raze is a bad play here and not even really an option.

About your preflop analysis, I think you are dead on.

[mcatdog]

You can try that if you want, and of course it's great if it works out but more than likely he'll just go all-in and you'll have to call. With 20 BB nut flush draw vs. top pair in a steal situation is just one of those coolers that happen in tournaments where someone is destined to bust. It's pointless to try to find a way to save some of your stack here.

[hlester25]

yeah you're right, but this guy was not very good. I really feel he wouldda just called my 3 bet. In hindsite, it wouldda been the bettrer play obvoiusly, but in the long run I think I didn the right thing.

Thanks for the input fellas and gl

[drmcboy]

he was never folding a king. This is a race, you lost it, it's OK, you played it fine.

edit left this on the post screen for a couple hours, sorry to re state mcat

[CorbinDallas]

the raise pre flop is fine. dunno who said it wasn't enough.

if you've been loose and this guy is kinda weak... you have 9 outs maybe 12. he's never folding top pair.

if you feel you have an advantage of the rest of the table, i don't see anything terrible about calling the re-raise and folding the turn.

but i think your play is just fine. you lost a coin flip.

[Pythonic]

Oops, didnt see the flush draw on the flop. I probably just shove over on the flop.

[chardrian]

couple things:

1) while I agree you don't need to raise 3x pre, I also think that less than 2.5x is too small - you are giving your opp over 3:1 to call here (my math says 8700 in pot 2500 to call). I do that with almost any two.

2) postflop is just standard - I don't know what the discussion is about. His minraise is dumb, but 12 outs at this point is the nuts. Just push and hope u race well.

[CorbinDallas]

i think auto putting him on a set is pretty retarded. and i didn't notice your flush draw when i first posted.

sometimes in the first couple hours of these tourneys, min raises from the blinds post flop is complete air. some donk trying to "scare" you away from the pot. i especially like it when they call your raise and then auto lead out min after the flop.

also if your villain is the big stack you could take his min raise as "testing" your cbet.

but with villains stack size he's always trying to get some donk value from a made hand.

i think you played it fine and lost a race.