Difference between $5.50 and the $11's?

[Ryski]

For those of you who have moved up between these two levels, I'm curious as to what you did to adapt and what major differences you've noticed? The reason I ask is because this is the second time I've tried to move up and got smacked down to the $5's again. It is extremely frustrating to have a 35% ROI at over 300+ games in the $5 and then have a -35% in the $11's ( small sample size of 32 games or so ... yes i know ) but everytime I move up I get cold decked to hell. I don't think they are that much better but I swear no matter what I do I can't win there for the moment. All my draws miss and everyone draws out against me. However, since this is twice now I'm trying to figure out where the leak is in my game if there is one and fix it asap. Anyway, if there is a leak I'm sure I'll find it eventually but what I'd like to know is what the notable differences are at these two SnG levels. Thanks.

[GatorJH]

I moved up to the $11's and back to the $5's twice before moving up for good. One of the things I did was let my bankroll get bigger so if I hit an immediate downswing it didn't bother me. The other thing that I think really helped (hint hint) was posting a couple of my $11 histories here to let others find out where I was going wrong.

You may have a leak or two that you need to fix before moving up and you may have just hit some negative variance both times, which in that case you should move up and just fight through the variance.

[Ryski]

If I move up and it happens a third time I'll post entire histories but I really wanted to see what people thought the differences were. A lot of what I got beat on was flopping second best two pair to someone elses two pair, flopping top set and then getting outdrawn all in pre-flop by a flush draw, and the occassional flopping bottom 2 when someone flopped a straight so nothing out of the ordinary to post.

I did notice that there is a lot less of donking off chips early. Early on, raises usually mean what they are supposed to mean and whereas in the $5's I'd get paid off by people bluffing in bad spots or just playing poorly in general, the raises at these levels are much more legit. A lot of hands that were easy calls in the $5's I found SHOULD have been easy lay downs in the $11's. I guess that is part of adjusting though.

[GatorJH]

If I move up and it happens a third time I'll post entire histories but I really wanted to see what people thought the differences were. A lot of what I got beat on was flopping second best two pair to someone elses two pair, flopping top set and then getting outdrawn all in pre-flop by a flush draw, and the occassional flopping bottom 2 when someone flopped a straight so nothing out of the ordinary to post.

I did notice that there is a lot less of donking off chips early. Early on, raises usually mean what they are supposed to mean and whereas in the $5's I'd get paid off by people bluffing in bad spots or just playing poorly in general, the raises at these levels are much more legit. A lot of hands that were easy calls in the $5's I found SHOULD have been easy lay downs in the $11's. I guess that is part of adjusting though.

The $11's (and higher) are definitely one of the bigger jumps in the "less fish" category so you may want to just try tightening up a bit in the early rounds and then make sure your push/fold decisions are sound later.

Good Luck

[yourfather]

I also moved up to $11s for a while back down to $5 and am back playing $11s for a while.

Sounds like most likely you hit a downswing and its more noticeable because the stakes are higher.

If you play tight early and generally ABC poker you should at least have a +ROI over a big enough sample, as the play is not that much better.

If you feel like you run really bad there maybe you should carry a little larger bankroll so you dont play scared or go bust if you hit some more negative variance.

Also, I would try to not let this bad streak force you to make hero folds.

But I know how you feel, and play some long breakeven or slightly losing stretches as well. GL.

[Rage2100]

It is extremely frustrating to have a 35% ROI at over 300+ games in the $5 and then have a -35% in the $11's ( small sample size of 32 games or so ... yes i know ) but everytime I move up I get cold decked to hell. I don't think they are that much better but I swear no matter what I do I can't win there for the moment. All my draws miss and everyone draws out against me.

This happened to me too. I have played around 300 SnGs at the $5.50 level now and have an ROI of 26% at them. My first try at the $11s was Saturday. I only played 4 games but bubbled in all 4, with KK twice. It's just a psychological thing with me at the moment, the fact of losing twice as much money each game if you don't cash. Once I start cashing in a few I'm sure this will get easier.
I have moved back to the $5.50s since but will give the $11s another go this weekend. I have the roll to keep playing the $11s but will probably switch between the two a few times.

I noticed the $11s were tighter early on and people didn't get involved without real hands. I also noticed the games went on for longer in and around the bubble, with more pushing and folding. I don't think there would be as many games where you can just sit back either, and let a few maniacs knock themselves out.

[bjsaust]

I've been thinking a bit about this lately, since I've been thinking of making a vid along these lines.

Really, you shouldnt need to make any adjustment at all, since you should be playing the $11s exactly the same as the $5.50s. Unfortunately, due to the level of play at the $5.50s, most people can get away with playing sub-optimally and still do well at them.

Most people who struggle (I think) either:

- Are too loose early/mid. Because at the $5.50s people are SO loose, you get away with being looser than you should yourself.

- Arent pushing wide enough when short. Especially in the SB, most people dont understand how wide we can make good ICM pushes and miss out on good pushes which would get us more chips.


Of course, sometimes its just variance.

Often though (and this is why I advocate posting tourneys for review rather than specific hands or general questions), its not the hand that knocked us out thats the problem, its play that you may not even realise was sub-optimal yourself that cost you chips that put you into the situation where you got knocked out.

[Rage2100]

Most people who struggle (I think) either:

- Are too loose early/mid. Because at the $5.50s people are SO loose, you get away with being looser than you should yourself.

- Arent pushing wide enough when short. Especially in the SB, most people dont understand how wide we can make good ICM pushes and miss out on good pushes which would get us more chips.

Can you push much wider at the $11s than you can at the $5.50s? I push loads more at the $5.50s than I did at the $1 and $2.50 games. At the micro limits, most people don't understand ICM and will call when they shouldn't, so my pushing ranges were much tighter. At the $5.50s, players seem to be a bit tighter around the bubble, so I push more hands.

At what level do most people understand ICM and therefore know what you're up to and call wider?

[bjsaust]

Its not that you can push wider at the $11s, its that people arent pushing as wide as they should at the $5.50s, but do well anyway. What I'm getting at, is the best way to play the $11s, is also the best way to play the $5.50s, but you can do ok at the $5.50s without playing that well.

Few people really get ICM at the $11s, but you definately start running into them at the $22s. Especially now with low buyin SNG leaderboards at both FTP and Stars. A bunch of decent players arent moving up to the $33s because of the extra incentive of scoring well on the leaderboard.

Your main concern is people who think they get ICM but adjust badly. Just because someone "knows" I'm pushing very wide doesnt mean they can call wide on the bubble, however you start to run into folks who realise you'll push wide and so make -EV calls, which is really a disaster for both of you (whoever wins you're giving equity to the generally worse players). I'll occassionally see that at the $11s, but again its more often at the $22s.

I would say as a general rule, people will call tighter at the $11s than the $5.50s so your range can be a bit wider, but hopefully you're able to adjust to the individuals, since by the bubble you should start to have some reads on the two players to your left.

[Ryski]

Well, I personally do not play the 11's any different than the 5's. However, what I did mean by adjusting is that people play better and that allows for less mistakes in my game. I'm not always on my A game when im 4 tabling but at the 5.50's it doesn't matter. At the 11's I need to be.

Also:

Often though (and this is why I advocate posting tourneys for review rather than specific hands or general questions), its not the hand that knocked us out thats the problem, its play that you may not even realise was sub-optimal yourself that cost you chips that put you into the situation where you got knocked out.

I probably miss a bunch of spots that are +EV pushing with lower cards that I normally wouldn't. I obviously miss these chips much more at the 11's than the 5's. I still think it's variance but only time and a larger sample size will till. A -60% ROI swing is pretty significant I think for just 1 level.

[bjsaust]

-60% ROI swing over a tiny sample is insignificant.

But yeah, another way of putting it is to say play the same, but make less mistakes.

[Deuce Blue]

Very good question and answers here. I told myself when my BR hit $330 I would move to $11's. I did for like 4 games and was smacked silly. I moved back to the $5.50's and went on a super heater that lasted the entire month of April. So the BR built and just didn't have the urge ( or maybe balls ) to move back to the $11's for quite awhile. Then again I played a few and did ok but still losing money, so back to the $5.50's for awhile. I now am at close to 1K and I am mixing $11's in with the others.

I know I am over rolled for the $5.50's but I find the level just so damn much easier. You really don't have to play your "A" game to get ITM in the $5.50's. I play on Sportsbook so I know the level of traffic is alot lower then PS or FT. So you have a bunch of pretty good regs that you see playing the $11's all the time. Where at the $5.50's you still get alot of idiots.

I now have a pretty good idea at the $11's who are the good players. If there is a table full of them I would just rather play 2 $5.50's. I know I am going to move to the $11's for good at some point but the losses do affect you mentally when you first move up. You lose 4 or 5 in a row and your BR has gone down like it's 8 or 10 in the $5.50's its a hurdle to overcome. Because playing scared money at the $11's is sucicide. Games last longer and you can't simply wait for the idiots to kill eachother.

Thanks to some harsh criticism of my play by Tai, I have been taking the time to apply some of his advice to strengthen my game at the $5.50's so when I do jump full throttle into the $11's I will feel prepared. I did win an $11 this weekend and God the feeling of spending an hour to make $40 bucks is alot better then making $20. LOL

I think there are alot of us in this boat. Maybe we should have a thread devoted to the $5.50 player who's trying to move up. Help eachother out and what not. And of course get some strong advice from the players that have completed the move. Just a thought...